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Geoffroy Gautier





Joined: 18 Nov 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 4:01 am    Post subject: Pinned crossguard on medieval sword.         Reply with quote

While I was browsing through my picture collection of falchion-related images, I just noticed something weird on a picture found and shared by J. Elmslie, likely coming from Hermann Historica.

On that surviving falchion/cleaver, which is not in too bad of a condition, there is no crossguard left, but where it should be, there is a tiny hole, clearly for a pin or rivet. It strikes me as quite peculiar: I am not aware of any crossguard secured by such a pin, but it's a kind of technical detail I might simply be ignorant of for not having a deep enough knowledge.

So I'm asking you, more knowledgeable folks, if you ever heard of a pinned crossguard on a medieval sword.



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Detail of the pin hole.

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The complete falchion/chopper. [ Download ]
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JG Elmslie
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Location: Scotland
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

well, there's definitely the small child's sword in the deutsches klingenmuseum (DKM 1961.W.154) which has a tiny rivet pin. and of course, plenty of messer-like single-edged arms.
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Victor R.




Location: Spring, Texas
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PostPosted: Sat 22 Sep, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The hole seems a bit small for it, but I wonder if it might have incorporated a nagel. Pin is more likely to me, but it is curious. Or, someone could have done the unthinkable and drilled a small hole for an inventory tag sometime after its recovery, restoration/stabilization and cataloging process.
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Leo Todeschini
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Location: Oxford, UK
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PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep, 2018 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The hole looks too small to be a rivet hole for a bagel or similar and I suspect is too small for a cross guard fixing, but also it doesn't look to round, so probably not fashioned, so I suspect a corrosion hole;.


Tod

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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Mon 24 Sep, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

sorry, can't resist Wink

" rivet hole for a bagel"
Laughing Out Loud

It is a good thing Bill Scagel never messed around with European messers but more likely to have seen a bagel than a nagel

Cheers
GC
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Geoffroy Gautier





Joined: 18 Nov 2009

Posts: 27

PostPosted: Tue 25 Sep, 2018 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, both Mr. Elmslie and Todeschini here!

I agree it's not a full Nagel hole (in the way we mean Nagel). It's too small. That's why I just called it a pin. But I don't think it's just corrosion either. It may appear deformed because of corrosion though.

But it's really so small, and so unusual, it's been puzzling me the second I noticed it. At least it seems I was mostly right assuming it's very rarely seen on swords, as bot of you well versed expert couldn't readily come with a handful of example of pinned crossguards. I'm not familiar with this child sword in the Klingenmuseum by the way, Mr. Elmslie, would you provide a link or a picture?

Bringing up Messers is an interesting suggestion. I have to admit I found myself speculating that this unusual hole, that has no reason to be there whatsoever on a sword, indicates that it may never have had a crossguard to start with. Cause that 2mm pin or so would surely be way unsufficient to hold and secure a proper sword crossguard if it had to have any structural role, but it seems relevant to hold a bolster (so a sort of "Nagel", but in the more native way of simply a "nail"/pin/rivet, not the HEMA specific word it became) or a ferrule, something that won't be subject to any amount of leverage. But of course a bolster goes on a flat tang, and a ferrule goes on a narrow tang, and here the hole is precisely on the flat blade part of a narrow tang. I'm not aware either of any mixed construction with a ferruled grip where the tang widens to become a sort of partial flat tang under the ferrule. And I really can't picture it being just a bolster either, it wouldn't "articulate" well with any sort of grip.

That's why it's really puzzling me: it makes no sense whatever way I look at it, even going wildly far with my hypothesis.
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