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Sam Arwas




Location: Australia
Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Fri 18 May, 2018 12:35 pm    Post subject: What do 13th century plate defences for limbs look like?         Reply with quote

I'm seeking to get a better understanding of what the early forms of plate augmentation for the arms and legs that developed in Europe in the late 13th century looked like. What are some good manuscript illustrations or surviving peices to get a sense of what of early "partial plate" armour looked like?
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Fri 18 May, 2018 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Plate leg defenses appear earlier. One of the earliest references for enclosed greaves appears in the 1302 Inventory of Raoul de Nesle, the Constable of France killed at the Battle of Courtrai.
Item ii harnas de gaumbes fourbis de coi les greves sont closes cs.
Item, 2 leg harness polished with enclosed greaves. 100 s
Item unes autres demie greves fourbies iiiil.
Item, one other half-greaves, polished. 4 l.

Unfortunately the words used to describe these defenses (schynbalds, jambiers, trumelières, etc.) don't explain their appearance.



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Toulouse BM MS.815 fo.27v.jpg
Apocalypse, Toulouse BM MS.815 fo.27v, 1220-1270

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Cambridge MS R.16.2 fo023r-schynb.jpg
Trinity Apocalypse, Cambridge MS R.16.2 fo.23r, c.1250

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Morgan M.638 fo.28v.jpg
'Goliath', Maciejowski Bible, Morgan M.638 fo.28v, 1240-1250

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LPL MS 209 fo.11v.jpg
Lambeth Apocalyspe, LPL MS 209 fo.11v, late 13th century.

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(SG) Notre Dame, Paris-schyn..jpg
Cathédrale Notre-Dame de Paris, 1214-1270

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,281

PostPosted: Fri 18 May, 2018 9:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A rare example of some possible forearm and shoulder plates.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4345/18978/


Effigy formerly attributed to Sir William Longespée the Younger, (+1250 Battle of Mansourah), Salisbury Cathedral. Sometimes dated 1250-1270, now listed as an "Unknown 14th century warrior" due to "recent research".


Simple roundels or cups over the elbow are usually the most plate on the upper limbs found in thirteenth century art.

Supplemental leather defenses over the mail should also be considered.
http://armourinart.com/169/261/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Sam Arwas




Location: Australia
Joined: 02 Dec 2015

Posts: 83

PostPosted: Sat 19 May, 2018 4:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Plate leg defenses appear earlier. One of the earliest references for enclosed greaves appears in the 1302 Inventory of Raoul de Nesle, the Constable of France killed at the Battle of Courtrai.
Item ii harnas de gaumbes fourbis de coi les greves sont closes cs.
Item, 2 leg harness polished with enclosed greaves. 100 s
Item unes autres demie greves fourbies iiiil.
Item, one other half-greaves, polished. 4 l.

Unfortunately the words used to describe these defenses (schynbalds, jambiers, trumelières, etc.) don't explain their appearance.
Thanks!
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

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PostPosted: Sat 19 May, 2018 6:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Plate-lined surcoats were also appearing mid-13th century.

Matthew
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 265

PostPosted: Sun 20 May, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Plate leg defenses appear earlier. One of the earliest references for enclosed greaves appears in the 1302 Inventory of Raoul de Nesle, the Constable of France killed at the Battle of Courtrai.
Item ii harnas de gaumbes fourbis de coi les greves sont closes cs.
Item, 2 leg harness polished with enclosed greaves. 100 s
Item unes autres demie greves fourbies iiiil.
Item, one other half-greaves, polished. 4 l.

Unfortunately the words used to describe these defenses (schynbalds, jambiers, trumelières, etc.) don't explain their appearance.


So ...
With "two leg harness the inventary is meaning a contemporary whole set that includes a pair of closed greaves or the leg harness is solely the closed greaves? By 1302 things like padded cuisses and knee-caps were to universal, right? I'm intrigued by the fact that, apparently artistic evidence seems to induce you that all the plate innovations (i.e. Armoured Surcoats; Greaves; elbow, shoulder and knee plates) wouldn't be common and popular until the 1330's, more or less. Can we trust in artistic evidence for that? I don't know any website with armour's inventories, so I'm also quite limited on that.

------
About written evidence for Coat-of-Plates: According to Ian Heath in Armies of Feudal Europe (1066-1300), the first accepted evidence for the CoP comes from a Florentine war-order of 1250-60's, describing a new equipment of the German knights which were serving as mercenaries. Italian sources also seen to indicate that it was the german who brought such equipment to the peninsula: the battle of Benevento mentions the German mercenaries were well protected by such innovations; E. Oakeshott also describes the battle in his book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Benevento). Besides this, we have Magdeburg Cathedral's Saint Maurice icon, dated 1250, and a pair (I guess) of another iconography of the sleeping soldiers at Christ's tomb, from Germany but of latter decades. Scandinavian sources like the Speculum Regale (dated 1250) mentions that all the knights were obligged to have one (the squires weren't, however), so apparently such equipment was quite popular in Germany and neighbours (probably all those CoP made in Germany itself) but artistic evidence isn't conformed with that.

If you wanna read more, I edited this article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_plates

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Alfonso X, King of Castile (1221-84)
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