Dagger/Dirk Help -- myArmoury.com

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: Dagger/Dirk Help

I'm trying to find photos, drawings and/or stats for an English or Scottish dagger or dirk of the period 1550-1650. It features a simple, unadorned Ballock or Dudgeon-like hilt, a broad double-edged blade of flattened diamond section and an overall length of 13"-19". As far as I know, this weapon exists only in my dreams, but I'd love to see anything similar y'all might dredge up. I've seen a few pieces around this site that are close but not quite on the mark.

Ready...set...GO!

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 1:59 pm Post subject:

This is a quick Photoshop sketch of what I have in mind. I have a source for the blade and the skill to make this piece, but I'd like to design and work with reference to an original. I think my basic design is historically plausible, but I'm open to your suggestions,comments and references to originals.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Is the first one in this photo too complex for what you're imagining?

Nate C. · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject:

I'm liking the second fron the bottom! Very cool Cool

. Gotta love a dagger with a longer ricasso.

Cheers,

Sean Flynt · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 2:06 pm Post subject:

It's not so much the complexity of that ballock dagger as the proportions I dislike. The last three dudgeon images from that Scottish Dirks article, combined in a single weapon, come closer to what I'm thinking of:

As you can see, the middle one is pretty close to my sketch, only with a single-edged blade.

Kirk Lee Spencer · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject:

Hi Sean...

This is the closest I have...

ks

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject:

Jay Barron · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject:

This CAS Iberia dirk reminds me a bit of what you are looking for...

Jay Barron · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject:

Del Tin also has a couple ballock daggers. Again, they're not exactly what you're looking for.

Matt G. Meekma · Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject:

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Matt, you're looking for a double-edged Scottish dirk / ballock dirk replica? Can you point me to some antiques that interest you for comparison?

Matt G. Meekma · Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 4:23 am Post subject:

Not sure if something like that ever existed... Was hoping that people here would be able to point one out to me actually. When it comes to historically accuracy, i am really not a very well informed person. Slowly learning but still don't have much knowledge at all. My main interest has always been Fantasy pieces, however since joining this site, I have learned much and hope to learn more. Sometimes historical stuff can be pretty fantastic ir you know what i mean.

I guess it is not that i have seen a ballock dagger that was like that, it is just that i made an uneducated decision on what i thought would be visually pleasing to me.

I mean if you look back even Sean was looking for a Double edged blade.

Sean Flynt

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

From 'The Scottish Dirk', by James D. Forman. Mac

Thomas McDonald · myArmoury Alumni

From 'Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800' by David H. Caldwell . Mac

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 6:46 am Post subject:

This is great stuff!

Some clarification: The reason I want to see an original with a DE blade is because I can get such a blade very cheaply. DE blades also happen to coincide with my main period of interest.

Problems: As far as I can tell, once the dudgeon dagger was supplanted by the dirk, long SE blades predominated. Also, the typical late ballock or dudgeon dagger with DE blade had a very slim profile, whereas the blade I intend to work with is relatively broad--like the distal quarter of an Oakeshott Type XVIII sword blade. Here are the stats:
8" blade (seems right for a dudgeon dagger)
13 7/8" overall (can be shortened, but also seems right for a dudgeon dagger)
1 1/2" wide at guard (significantly wider than any historic examples I've seen and more like the width of later SE dirks.
1/8" thick (because most of the DE dagger blades I'm seeing are narrow, they seem to have much thicker cross-sections.

Matt will be interested to know that the ($13) blade I'm considering has a 12" twin (approx. 19" overall). That would be a great size for a fantasy DE dirk. Heck, that's almost a hanger. That blade is only $15. Check Atlanta cutlery.

This may be my Spring project. If so, I'll be sure to post my results.

An interesting note: My great-great-grandfather made his own dirk/pig sticker from a thin, flat sheet of iron and two wooden scales, and this piece is still in my family. It's not clear whether this was his fighting knife (doubtful, since he ended the Civil War in a prison camp) or strictly for killing hogs. It's strictly a crude stabbing weapon, with a broad blade tapering to a point. The grip swells at both ends and it doesn't take much imagination to see it as a descendent of the ballock/dudgeon/dirk. It's around 10" overall, if I remember correctly.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 6:55 am Post subject:

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 7:17 am Post subject:

Hey, Matt...here's something you might like. The 16th c. Irish warrior at the far right is showing off a skean with what appears to be a long, narrow, DE blade of diamond section. I may be misreading the image, though, and it seems that most skeans were SE. Anyway, a skean hilt would be even simpler to make than a dudgeon or dirk hilt. As far as I've been able to determine, these hilts were more-or-less just cylindrical. At 1.75" at the guard, the AC blade is much broader than the one shown here, but it might be a good compromise between fantasy and history. It would certainly be a formidable weapon, anyway.

Nathan Robinson · myArmoury Admin

Sean Flynt · Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 12:52 pm Post subject:

Well, I've just ordered two of the 8" blades. Why two? Why not? At only $12 each, it seemed a shame to waste the shipping on a single blade. Plus, if the first one goes well I might try another as a presentation piece. I'm still looking around for design details, but I think I'll probably go ahead with the general form of my sketch. Thanks, folks!

Matt G. Meekma · Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: