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Sean Flynt
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 Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 1:06 pm Post subject: Dagger/Dirk Help |
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I'm trying to find photos, drawings and/or stats for an English or Scottish dagger or dirk of the period 1550-1650. It features a simple, unadorned Ballock or Dudgeon-like hilt, a broad double-edged blade of flattened diamond section and an overall length of 13"-19". As far as I know, this weapon exists only in my dreams, but I'd love to see anything similar y'all might dredge up. I've seen a few pieces around this site that are close but not quite on the mark.
Ready...set...GO!
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Nate C.
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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I'm liking the second fron the bottom! Very cool  . Gotta love a dagger with a longer ricasso.
Cheers,
Nate C.
Sapere Aude
"If you are going to kill the man, at least give him a decent salute." - A. Blansitt
If they ever come up with a Swashbuckling School, I think one of the courses should be Laughing, then Jumping Off Something. --Jack Handy
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Sean Flynt
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Kirk Lee Spencer
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 3:49 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Sean...
This is the closest I have...
ks
Two swords
Lit in Eden’s flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Patrick Kelly
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 3:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Sean Flynt wrote: | | This is a quick Photoshop sketch of what I have in mind. I have a source for the blade and the skill to make this piece, but I'd like to design and work with reference to an original. I think my basic design is historically plausible, but I'm open to your suggestions,comments and references to originals. |
Sean,
I've been after a good Ballock dagger for some time now and your design is very much to my liking. I'm eager to see what you come up with.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 5:15 pm Post subject: |
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This CAS Iberia dirk reminds me a bit of what you are looking for...
Constant and true.
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Jay Barron
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 5:25 pm Post subject: |
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Del Tin also has a couple ballock daggers. Again, they're not exactly what you're looking for.
 Attachment: 9.34 KB
[ Download ]
Constant and true.
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Matt G. Meekma
Location: Horicon, Wi Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Tue 22 Mar, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Jay Barron wrote: | | This CAS Iberia dirk reminds me a bit of what you are looking for... |
Just acquired one of these from Nathan Bell a week or so ago. It is only a single edge blade. Not a bad dirk to say the least, not exactly what i am looking for to fill that niche either. My favorite so far has been Chad Arnow's VE Ballock Dagger, but again not double edged.
Wish i could be more help, but i am really looking forward to seeing what you come up with Sean. As of late i have been letting the idea of getting a Ballock dagger as my first custom piece roll around in my head... and it isn't rolling away. Sounds like we have about the same thing in mind: Something with simple elegance and clean lines yet with double edge authority.
Looking forward to what this thread brings up for picture references as well, in case the "perfect" thing shows up.
Beer is God's way of saying He wants Us to be Happy. - Ben Franklin
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Matt G. Meekma
Location: Horicon, Wi Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 4:23 am Post subject: |
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Not sure if something like that ever existed... Was hoping that people here would be able to point one out to me actually. When it comes to historically accuracy, i am really not a very well informed person. Slowly learning but still don't have much knowledge at all. My main interest has always been Fantasy pieces, however since joining this site, I have learned much and hope to learn more. Sometimes historical stuff can be pretty fantastic ir you know what i mean.
I guess it is not that i have seen a ballock dagger that was like that, it is just that i made an uneducated decision on what i thought would be visually pleasing to me.
I mean if you look back even Sean was looking for a Double edged blade.
Sean Flynt
| Quote: | | I'm trying to find photos, drawings and/or stats for an English or Scottish dagger or dirk of the period 1550-1650. It features a simple, unadorned Ballock or Dudgeon-like hilt, a broad double-edged blade of flattened diamond section... |
Beer is God's way of saying He wants Us to be Happy. - Ben Franklin
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 5:27 am Post subject: |
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From 'The Scottish Dirk', by James D. Forman. Mac
Attachment: 118.51 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Thomas McDonald
myArmoury Alumni
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 5:35 am Post subject: |
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From 'Scottish Weapons & Fortifications 1100-1800' by David H. Caldwell . Mac
Attachment: 76.76 KB
'Gott Bewahr Die Oprechte Schotten'
XX ANDRIA XX FARARA XX
Mac's PictureTrail
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 6:46 am Post subject: |
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This is great stuff!
Some clarification: The reason I want to see an original with a DE blade is because I can get such a blade very cheaply. DE blades also happen to coincide with my main period of interest.
Problems: As far as I can tell, once the dudgeon dagger was supplanted by the dirk, long SE blades predominated. Also, the typical late ballock or dudgeon dagger with DE blade had a very slim profile, whereas the blade I intend to work with is relatively broad--like the distal quarter of an Oakeshott Type XVIII sword blade. Here are the stats:
8" blade (seems right for a dudgeon dagger)
13 7/8" overall (can be shortened, but also seems right for a dudgeon dagger)
1 1/2" wide at guard (significantly wider than any historic examples I've seen and more like the width of later SE dirks.
1/8" thick (because most of the DE dagger blades I'm seeing are narrow, they seem to have much thicker cross-sections.
Matt will be interested to know that the ($13) blade I'm considering has a 12" twin (approx. 19" overall). That would be a great size for a fantasy DE dirk. Heck, that's almost a hanger. That blade is only $15. Check Atlanta cutlery.
This may be my Spring project. If so, I'll be sure to post my results.
An interesting note: My great-great-grandfather made his own dirk/pig sticker from a thin, flat sheet of iron and two wooden scales, and this piece is still in my family. It's not clear whether this was his fighting knife (doubtful, since he ended the Civil War in a prison camp) or strictly for killing hogs. It's strictly a crude stabbing weapon, with a broad blade tapering to a point. The grip swells at both ends and it doesn't take much imagination to see it as a descendent of the ballock/dudgeon/dirk. It's around 10" overall, if I remember correctly.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
Last edited by Sean Flynt on Wed 23 Mar, 2005 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 6:55 am Post subject: |
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| Patrick Kelly wrote: | | I've been after a good Ballock dagger for some time now and your design is very much to my liking. I'm eager to see what you come up with. |
Me too! While I admire the traditional, late highland dirk, it's out of my main period of interest and is just a bit too fancy for my tastes. Ditto for the late medieval ballock daggers, which also look a bit frail and mishapen, with their sharply tapered grips and pronounced ballocks. I want a robust all-business dagger with the look of something made by the local smith rather than a master cutler. My project may very well turn out to be a fantasy piece "inspired by daggers and dirks of 1550-1650". I can live with that.
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Sean Flynt
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 7:17 am Post subject: |
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Hey, Matt...here's something you might like. The 16th c. Irish warrior at the far right is showing off a skean with what appears to be a long, narrow, DE blade of diamond section. I may be misreading the image, though, and it seems that most skeans were SE. Anyway, a skean hilt would be even simpler to make than a dudgeon or dirk hilt. As far as I've been able to determine, these hilts were more-or-less just cylindrical. At 1.75" at the guard, the AC blade is much broader than the one shown here, but it might be a good compromise between fantasy and history. It would certainly be a formidable weapon, anyway.
Attachment: 45.67 KB
-Sean
Author of the Little Hammer novel
https://www.amazon.com/Little-Hammer-Sean-Flynt/dp/B08XN7HZ82/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=little+hammer+book&qid=1627482034&sr=8-1
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Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin
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Sean Flynt
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Matt G. Meekma
Location: Horicon, Wi Joined: 03 Mar 2004
Posts: 61
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| Posted: Wed 23 Mar, 2005 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Nathan Robinson wrote: | | Matt G. Meekma wrote: | | Not sure if something like that ever existed... |
Ah. I was just curious if you had a specific antique in mind. |
No I don't Nathan, That is why I am so interested in this Thread. With all the wonderful pictures that everyone is posting i can get more ideas or even find one that is "Just Right".
Right now I just have an "picture" in my mind of what I think I am looking for / interested in. The PhotoShop image that Sean made is Really close to what I was looking for as well. Would prefer something with a slight bit more taper in the grip to give it a little bit more pronounced ballock area (that just sounds bad...) and a more ?"funnel"? shaped pommel.
First thought on a broad DE blade is that it would seem more utilitarian in function as well as slightly sturdier as a small back-up weapon.
Sean Flynt
| Quote: | | My project may very well turn out to be a fantasy piece "inspired by daggers and dirks of 1550-1650". I can live with that. |
That is about the same boat that I am sailing in too. Also the Stats for your project seem to match my thoughts as well. Never have been a fan of the overly large knife/dagger.
When the blades arrive Sean could you please post some pics of them before you start your project and give us your impressions of them as compared to what the catalog pictures made you think about them. Never have been a real do-it-yourself guy but there is a first time for everything. Might be something to get me started.
Beer is God's way of saying He wants Us to be Happy. - Ben Franklin
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This is a standard topic
