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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,429

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: help with the coppergate helmet..         Reply with quote

so a friend posted this question on facebook

Quote:
damn... is it just me or is saxon just harder to find research for in general.
trying to understand more about the Jorvik village and why the coppergate helm is dated 8th century saxon but in an apparently 9th century viking village in york. and then it has the latin prayer on it so it likely didnt belong to the vikings and there are 6th century carvings depicting almost the same helmet *brain explodes*

if anyone has any resources they could share as always it would be appreciated.


the goal of gaining understanding of the coppergates historical context is based around the goal of understanding the sort of man who would have worn it, and through that, what would match the helmet in terms of things like sword typology, clothing, accessories etc


Last edited by William P on Fri 23 Jun, 2017 6:36 am; edited 1 time in total
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Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 4:19 am    Post subject: Re: help with the coppergate helmet..         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
why the coppergate helm is dated 8th century saxon but in an apparently 9th century viking village in york. and then it has the latin prayer on it so it likely didnt belong to the vikings
.
Hi William,
The original dating of the helmet was based on the style of writing in the inscription, as well as the style of the animal decorations on the helmet, both of which have close parallels in 8th century Anglo-Saxon manuscripts. Perhaps more evidence for or against that dating has emerged since then, I don't know
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

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PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some things to look into-

These are the articles themselves-
http://samla.raa.se/xmlui/bitstream/handle/raa/2473/1983_105.pdf

http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/u...Y-17-8.pdf

This is a citation.
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/antiquity/article/latin-inscription-on-the-coppergate-helmet/BBA15786837ED322FA4D0F233B29E717

There was another guy who wrote some on this but I cannot recall his name sadly nor find my notes on it at the moment. I am making a hybrid of the coppergate and pioneer helmet so this is still on going for me.

The Pioneer is dated to the 7th. Ian Meadows is the guy that has written the most on it I can think of.

Coppergate usually to the 8th but some have assumed it was buried right before the Viking invasion in the 9th. It could be. I suspect some of these items saw some long term use.

I am more concerned on the pioneer helmets dating. I did find a fair amount of info but the two helmets are nearly identical and dated different. I guess it is possible the helmet could have been in use form the 7th to the 9th....

Best of luck!

RPM
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Ed W.




Location: New Zealand
Joined: 27 Mar 2016

Posts: 30

PostPosted: Fri 23 Jun, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dominic Tweddle's book 'The Coppergate Helmet' would likely be of use.

ed.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One of my links is actually to that book. It is the mainstay for this helmet for sure. The Yorkshire Arch Trust has it up for free more or less complete.

RPM
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does it matter when it was buried? Isn't it more important to determine when it was made? Suppose it had been passed down through various owners over a period of several centuries? If it was made in the 6th century and buried in the 9th century, should it be dated to the 6th or 9th century?
Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
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James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 523

PostPosted: Sat 24 Jun, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall, thanks for directing me to the PDF of Tweddle's book! For everyone else, here's a link;
http://www.yorkarchaeology.co.uk/wp-content/u...Y-17-8.pdf

This reminds me of something that has been driving me batty for years; the dimensions of the Vendel and Valsgarde helms that are given are ludicrously small - kid sized at best. Am I reading this right? I have been wondering if the Valsgard XIV's cheekplates were taken from a more or less normal Roman helmet and repurposed for the Valsgard XIV, with its tiny skull (L. (cap) c.140mm) making them look enormous. Or maybe I don't know what L. (cap) means. Confused

jamesarlen.com
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

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PostPosted: Sun 25 Jun, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,

Of course it matters. It gives a time we know it was around and a terminus. By far the burial dating is also the most secure as we have organic material that was tested an gave more secure time frames.

Trying to figure the date it was made is much more difficult. As far as I know neither the pioneer not the coppergate types show up in artwork. As well we do not have any datable material from when they were made. So we have to rely on less dependable dating for when it would have been created and even in use. So as far as what is a more solid date we have the late dates with few early anchors earlier on. I am still looking over the pioneer dating at the moment. Seems less solid to the coppergate.

That is a great question though. As far as I know no one really is dating it that early to the 6th century date really now. It mostly seems to be sometime in the 7th and 8th where it seems to be landing. Now the question can also be was it in use the entire time from say the 600s to the 800s. I do not know. Even if it were in use from the 600s to the 700s it would be a long life span. Not unique to it though. I am assuming it was made in the 600s and was buried mid 800s as I cannot pinpoint it much closer than that. At least for the style of helmet it seems plausible.

James,

Not a problem. I will have to take a look at them as I do not remember.

RPM
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L. Mitchell





Joined: 27 Nov 2016

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Wed 05 Jul, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
There was another guy who wrote some on this but I cannot recall his name sadly nor find my notes on it at the moment.


You may be thinking of Peter Addyman. He co-wrote a 1982 article in Antiquity, "The Coppergate helmet." He also wrote an article the same year for The London Illustrated News.

There are a few more articles listed here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coppergate_Helmet#Bibliography. Tweddle also wrote an earlier book, The Coppergate helmet, but I think it was largely subsumed by his 1992 work.

If anyone needs help obtaining any of the publications, I may be able to help.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

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PostPosted: Thu 06 Jul, 2017 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks that was indeed the one!

I think you are right about Tweddle's works. Older one still has some great info and images but the new one does indeed supersede it.

RPM
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