Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Help With Iron Blade Sword Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sat 06 May, 2017 8:55 pm    Post subject: Help With Iron Blade Sword         Reply with quote

I just picked up another very odd sword. About 19 Ĺ inches long, 4.5 lbs, 13 inch blade. Looks to be all handmade, bronze handle, steel blade sharpened on both sides. The blade has a slight wobble to it and appears to have been made of iron. . Itís hard to explain, but if you tap it with another piece of metal, it rings like a bell. Balance point is about ĺ of an inch into the bronze handle. I donít think this is some repo, truly appears to be very old and not mass produced. Can anyone shed some light on this?




 Attachment: 54.18 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 49.59 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 52.19 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 47.44 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 31.11 KB
[ Download ]

 Attachment: 62.2 KB
[ Download ]


Last edited by Rich Allen on Tue 09 May, 2017 5:52 am; edited 2 times in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sat 06 May, 2017 11:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

THAT is truly strange. WTF?! At 4-1/2 pounds, I doubt that it was meant to be a weapon. For some reason--I do not know why--this seems to relate to maritime usage--on a ship at sea. Something to do with securing riggings? I'm stumped. WTF?! ...McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 981

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 12:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's a modern decorative thingy. Definitely not a Roman sword, despite the superficial resemblance to a gladius.

Four and a half pounds is WAY too much for a functional weapon of that size, and the hilt is much too ornate in relation to the crudely fashioned blade for it to be a tool of some kind - most of the work put into this thing (such as it is) clearly went towards what the maker thought would look cool. I'm pretty sure that pommel at least was cast from a door knob or curtain rod finial, and the rest of the hilt was probably also molded on assorted architectural decorations. (I assume it's cast in one piece?)

I seriously doubt it's older than a couple of decades, at most.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Hadrian Coffin
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, England
Joined: 03 Apr 2008

Posts: 383

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 5:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

I wouldn't be so sure it is *modern* per say. It is definitely not a Roman piece, but that doesn't mean it is necessarily inauthentic. It looks very much to me like a theatrical sword --19th century.
The patina on the bronze, and the even rust, is consistent with some legitimate age. It is also far too ridiculous/dissimilar from any authentic piece that it really doesn't look like an intentional forgery.

Cheers,
Hadrian

Historia magistra vitae est
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 5:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, I'd agree that it's some kind of theatrical or decorative piece. Definitely different and interesting!

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 6:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, I agree also, but still....Why build something so heavy for just a 'prop' ? WTF?! ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can see why I am confused. It is well balanced and easy to handle, even at that weight. It is quite sharp even it its rusted state. The blade is definitely made of iron, sounds just like a cast iron bell. I think this would be too heavy and dangerous for a prop. As to the casting from modern parts, it may look that way in the photos, but in reality the decorations are very inconsistent. The line widths and angles are all different, the round end is not symmetrical, different sizes. It looks to me like it was carved from clay maybe? Definitely not cast from machine made samples. It looks to me like this was made to punch thru some type of armor. But again, I have no clue!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's kinda hard to tell from the pics, but is the handle all one solid piece? It looks like it could have been cast from an original that was made from carved wood. WTF?! ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
Joined: 16 Nov 2004
Reading list: 13 books

Posts: 981

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 10:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark C. Moore wrote:
Yes, I agree also, but still....Why build something so heavy for just a 'prop' ? WTF?! ....McM

I'd wager real money the maker simply didn't know how to make it lighter, and likely thought "real" weapons should be heavy, to boot.

If it's sharp, and assuming it was made that way rather than sharpened at some later point, it's probably not a theatrical prop. In that case a home made curio for decorative or recreational purposes would be my guess, by a hobbyist or student metalworker. They obviously knew how to cast bronze and grind steel, at least to some extent, but did not know how to make a sword except in the broadest of terms. They also obviously cared more about adding decorative details than about getting the basic shapes nice and clean, which would be another reason I think this was not made for any actual practical purpose.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You are probably spot-on correct about all of that. My Dad told me that in WW2, lots of the sailors on his ship made their own knives. He said they mostly used cast -aluminum- for the hilts, and some were downright fancy. Others, he said, were fairly crude. I'm just wondering if this is a WW2-era military-made piece. I can't really justify the bronze in that context though...I would figure bronze would have been hard to come by in wartime. And expensive. Question ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Right, it's NOT a weapon, nor was it made to punch through armor.

There are literally thousands of over-weight repro "swords" you can buy today, many of them sharp (or sharpenable) and often advertised as "battle-ready" and such. Such things have been available for a couple centuries. Doesn't make them real.

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark C. Moore wrote:
It's kinda hard to tell from the pics, but is the handle all one solid piece? It looks like it could have been cast from an original that was made from carved wood. WTF?! ....McM


Yes the handle is one solid piece.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm....just another mystery of life. Worried Stick it in a case and just call it a 'curio'. Wink Laughing Out Loud ....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Ian Hutchison




Location: Louisiana / Nordrhein-Westholland
Joined: 27 Nov 2007

Posts: 488

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 1:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going with Victorian prop.
'We are told that the pen is mightier than the sword, but I know which of these weapons I would choose.' - Adrian Carton de Wiart
View user's profile Send private message
Rich Allen




Location: Illinonis
Joined: 02 Mar 2012

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 3:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Right, it's NOT a weapon, nor was it made to punch through armor.

There are literally thousands of over-weight repro "swords" you can buy today, many of them sharp (or sharpenable) and often advertised as "battle-ready" and such. Such things have been available for a couple centuries. Doesn't make them real.

Matthew


I canít believe you wonít call this a weapon. Clearly, if you dropped it on your foot, your not going be using it for several days. And if it hit your foot point down, the gushing blood would cause you to get dizzy, possibly falling on the blade. Certainly a trip to the ER worst case the Morgue. Clearly a weapon!
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sam Barris




Location: San Diego, California
Joined: 29 Apr 2004
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 619

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 4:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rich Allen wrote:
I canít believe you wonít call this a weapon. Clearly, if you dropped it on your foot, your not going be using it for several days. And if it hit your foot point down, the gushing blood would cause you to get dizzy, possibly falling on the blade. Certainly a trip to the ER worst case the Morgue. Clearly a weapon!

At least there's only a one in twenty chance of that happening! Wink

I'm going with Victorian decoration aping Roman design, probably as a household decoration, but a theatrical prop is within the realm of possibility (though it seems too heavy for that). Absolutely no chance that thing was made to see action, much less punch through armor. It's certainly a curious find, and I could buy that it was not artificially aged as I don't see a lot of active rust on the blade, but Victorian is as old as I can go.

I'd hang it above the fireplace and make up a cool story to tell visitors. Happy

Pax,
Sam Barris

"Any nation that draws too great a distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards, and its fighting done by fools." óThucydides
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Sun 07 May, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rich Allen wrote:
Matthew Amt wrote:
Right, it's NOT a weapon, nor was it made to punch through armor.

There are literally thousands of over-weight repro "swords" you can buy today, many of them sharp (or sharpenable) and often advertised as "battle-ready" and such. Such things have been available for a couple centuries. Doesn't make them real.

Matthew


I canít believe you wonít call this a weapon. Clearly, if you dropped it on your foot, your not going be using it for several days. And if it hit your foot point down, the gushing blood would cause you to get dizzy, possibly falling on the blade. Certainly a trip to the ER worst case the Morgue. Clearly a weapon!


Then the same could be said for an anvil, or a frozen turkey, or a sheet of drywall. Staplers draw blood on a regular basis. There were no real swords of that size that weighed that much. Period. As you learn more about swords and other weapons, you'll realize that's true.

*Hazard*, maybe. NOT a weapon.

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2017 7:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my experience, a -weapon- is an object used by one person, usually as offence or defense against another person or other threat...bear, lion, whatever. Almost -anything- can be used as a weapon...it just depends on the intent and skill of usage of the person wielding it. I could attack someone with a rolled-up newspaper and probably do them harm...not that I would do such a stupid thing....just saying. Wink .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,306

PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark C. Moore wrote:
In my experience, a -weapon- is an object used by one person, usually as offence or defense against another person or other threat...bear, lion, whatever. Almost -anything- can be used as a weapon...it just depends on the intent and skill of usage of the person wielding it. I could attack someone with a rolled-up newspaper and probably do them harm...not that I would do such a stupid thing....just saying. Wink .....McM


Oh, believe me, I'm a firm believer in "EVERYTHING is a weapon!" Just ask my co-workers.

What I'm saying is that this particular object was NOT constructed as a functional weapon of war. Because it is way too heavy for that.

But you've handled a few weapons in your time, haven't you? If YOU were faced with sudden danger, and had a choice between, say, a reasonably accurate reproduction Roman gladius, maybe as heavy a pound and a half, and this gravitational anomaly, which would you grab?

Matthew
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Mon 08 May, 2017 8:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Agreed 100%. Laughing Out Loud .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Help With Iron Blade Sword
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum