Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Ring size on maille coats Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Jared McClelland




Location: NC
Joined: 03 Jul 2015

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2017 6:54 pm    Post subject: Ring size on maille coats         Reply with quote

I was watching an old video from the Metropolitan Museum of Art called A Visit to the Armor Galleries (http://www.metmuseum.org/metmedia/video/collections/aa/visit-to-armor-galleries) and when showing maille, they show a maille shirt with a ring size smaller than I've ever seen before. The sleeve they show a little after the three minute and thirty second mark has rings so small that I can't even tell individual rings apart. So this got me wondering, how small did the ring size on maille coats get? Did rings that were small in width also have to be thinner?
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,198

PostPosted: Fri 24 Feb, 2017 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It depends on how rigid you want the final construction. If you make the rings thicker compared to the diameter you lose some flexibility. You can make mail completely rigid if the links are thick enough.

The smallest links I know about are around 3mm

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sat 25 Feb, 2017 9:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But in the high to late middle ages, 11th to 14th century. What is the normal diameter and thickness? Of said maille.
1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
View user's profile Send private message
Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,280

PostPosted: Sat 25 Feb, 2017 10:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To determine what is "normal", someone will have to take measurements of all mail from the surviving period, and then plot the bell curve. It's probably somehere between 8 mm and 10 mm external diameter. The double standard of deviation probably includes rings from 6-12 mm external diameter, with known samples both above and below that range. Thordeman reports that mail ecavated from the mass graves of the Battle of Wisby in 1361 ranged from 4 mm to 17 mm, with the majority having an external diameter of 8-10 mm. Rings from an armorer's shop in medieval Gomel, Belarus probably burned by the Mongols in the mid-13th century fell into three sizes, 6, 9, and 14 mm external diameter. Peter Beatson plotted the Birka mail finds and some other Viking Age mail.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/mail/birka_mail.htm
David Counts had compiled some pre-medieval measurements as well.
http://armourarchive.org/essays/essay__maille_timetable.shtml

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
View user's profile Send private message
Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 3,198

PostPosted: Sat 25 Feb, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Fisher Lobdell wrote:
But in the high to late middle ages, 11th to 14th century. What is the normal diameter and thickness? Of said maille.


To summarise Mart's response: there is no such thing as a normal ring diameter. What would be your response if someone asked what a normal automobile was?

Author: Bronze Age Military Equipment, Pen and Sword Books
View user's profile Send private message
Bram Verbeek





Joined: 27 Mar 2007

Posts: 217

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 12:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Fisher Lobdell wrote:
But in the high to late middle ages, 11th to 14th century. What is the normal diameter and thickness? Of said maille.


To summarise Mart's response: there is no such thing as a normal ring diameter. What would be your response if someone asked what a normal automobile was?

To expand on that, a normal automobile from the 19th century to the 22nd.
View user's profile Send private message
Jared McClelland




Location: NC
Joined: 03 Jul 2015

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
It depends on how rigid you want the final construction. If you make the rings thicker compared to the diameter you lose some flexibility. You can make mail completely rigid if the links are thick enough.

The smallest links I know about are around 3mm


Do you happen to know of any artifacts with a ring size that small? A maille garment with rings that small sounds like something I'd be pretty interested in seeing.
View user's profile Send private message
Mark Moore




Location: East backwoods-assed Texas
Joined: 01 Oct 2003
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 2,256

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 9:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I see by your posts that you are mainly interested in the study of historic mail, but if you are interested in buying some---MRL sells a machine-welded shirt with 3-16" rings. Itty-bitty! Wink Just FYI... Happy .....McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
View user's profile Send private message
James Arlen Gillaspie
Industry Professional



Location: upstate NY
Joined: 10 Nov 2005

Posts: 528

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jared, look at the thread on 'authentic mail'. http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=293...aille+mail
I posted some photos of some 'micromail' that I had to do some work on a while back. That stuff behaved more like some sort of heavy fabric than like most mail.

jamesarlen.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
Joined: 03 Nov 2016
Reading list: 14 books

Posts: 65

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 5:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the replies! Big Grin I agree with what you said, that there is no "normal" ring size. And that was the answer I was afraid of... Worried

And thanks for the link Mart!

Now back to Jared's question.

1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
View user's profile Send private message
Jared McClelland




Location: NC
Joined: 03 Jul 2015

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 6:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Moore wrote:
I see by your posts that you are mainly interested in the study of historic mail, but if you are interested in buying some---MRL sells a machine-welded shirt with 3-16" rings. Itty-bitty! Wink Just FYI... Happy .....McM


I'm not really interested in buying any maille, I like to make my own when I can. Thanks for the suggestion though.
View user's profile Send private message
Jared McClelland




Location: NC
Joined: 03 Jul 2015

Posts: 29

PostPosted: Sun 26 Feb, 2017 6:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

James Arlen Gillaspie wrote:
Jared, look at the thread on 'authentic mail'. http://myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=293...aille+mail
I posted some photos of some 'micromail' that I had to do some work on a while back. That stuff behaved more like some sort of heavy fabric than like most mail.


Thanks for linking that. I've made maille for myself for a couple years now, and it's hard to imagine how hard it would have been to make maille that small. I had to shrink the image and hold a penny up to my screen just to make sure the rings were as small as I thought they were. I imagine that to be that small and have that density the rings would have to have been very thin. Seriously though, thank-you for linking those images, I think I may try my hand at making maille that small some day.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Ring size on maille coats
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum