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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Sat 11 Feb, 2017 2:32 pm    Post subject: "Flag-Crest"?         Reply with quote



I found this image in the internet with this kind of flag attached to the helmet as if was some kind of crest. I'm sure this is historical, since I found that in a modern drawing about burgundian gendarmes. I would like to ask a few questions:

What is the name of this object? When could it have arisen in 15th century and where exactly it had some popularity? Given by the lack of representations, I believe it would something very local
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,260

PostPosted: Sat 11 Feb, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In use as early as the 13th century, German -
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4784/12603/


Early 15th century, French -
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3993/9965/


Early 14th century - Italian
http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/btv1b8447879g/f262.image

The triangular-shaped ones are known as penoncels.



 Attachment: 87.06 KB
BNF Français 295, p.250.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Mon 17 Apr, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: "Flag-Crest"?         Reply with quote

Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
I'm sure this is historical, since I found that in a modern drawing about burgundian gendarmes.


Not exactly the way I'd recommend to decide whether something is historical or not. Even if something is found everywhere in high-quality modern illustrations, that doesn't mean it's historical unless we can actually find a historical textual or pictorial source for it (or a corresponding archaeological artifact). Fortunately Mart has that sorted.
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Pedro Paulo Gaião




Location: Rio de Janeiro, Brasil
Joined: 14 Mar 2015

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 25 May, 2017 9:24 am    Post subject: Re: "Flag-Crest"?         Reply with quote

Lafayette C Curtis wrote:
Pedro Paulo Gaião wrote:
I'm sure this is al, since I found that in a modern drawing about burgundian gendarmes.


Not exactly the way I'd recommend to decide whether something is al or not. Even if something is found everywhere in high-quality modern illustrations, that doesn't mean it's al unless we can actually find a al textual or pictorial source for it (or a corresponding archaeological artifact). Fortunately Mart has that sorted.


I know it isn't the best way to decide, but I came across such elements in several occasions, and the photo above is from a famous curator specialized in (he is reenacting in the case).

In any case, yesterday I could find more substancial information about it in Heath's book and from an Osprey's book made by Nicholas Michael. The latter one comments about an 1473's Ordinance:

"D1 : A reconstruction oft he sallet of a chef d'escadre in accordance with the St. Maximin Ordinance, 1473. The painting on this flag would have matched that on the company banner, and the simbols on it show the bearer to be the second squadron attached to the third company

Source: Armies of Burgundy 1367 - 1477. p. 35.


In Heath's Armies of Middle Ages vol. 1 (p. 145), he comments about an company pennoncel:




About 120a:




The thing is, when he's talking about how common such crest-flags were with officers and commanders of this time (1480's), I don't know if he's talking about french ones or western european ones, in a more broader sense
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