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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
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PostPosted: Mon 05 Dec, 2016 9:52 pm    Post subject: Italian sallet in the 1370s?         Reply with quote

I was scrolling through manuscripts and miniatures and I saw this... A sallet...but look at the date of the manuscript 1370. Weren't sallets developed in the 15th century? Perhaps earlier indeed, unless it was dated incorrectly. But I don't think so because the art style is very much to that period. I don't know, can anyone help shed some light on this? Here is the link. http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/Wave/savima...5475-p.jpg


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1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

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Hadrian Coffin
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Location: Oxford, England
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Do you have a link to the full item by any chance? I don't want to say anything yet, but indeed it looks to be misrepresented.

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 3:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Other miniatures from the same manuscript -
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manuscript=3952
http://www.enluminures.culture.fr/documentati...061-01.htm

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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 6:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry about that this is my first post here. Worried Happy
1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 6:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart - have you got an opinion on this one?

I know we have other images of what are probably early armets that look like sallets ... and I have a feeling that there's a thread here that shows an early (proto?) sallet from the late 14th C ...

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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 6:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Any other depiction's?
1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some people consider this an early bascinet variant, with flared neck.
http://armourinart.com/58/302/

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Fisher Lobdell




Location: Kansas city
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 9:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's pretty much what a sallet is, so I myself consider it a proper sallet. Thanks for the replies!
1 Peter 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Absence of evidence is not necessarily the evedence of
Absence. Ewart Oakeshotte.
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Craig Peters




PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2016 10:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On what basis is the painting that Mart shared dated to 1320?

The style of art looks very different from early 14th century art. It's much more consistent with what we see closer to 1350 AD onward. The soldier with his visor raised up looks like he is wearing a coat of plates or perhaps a breastplate covered with fabric, rather than mail with a few additions as one would expect for 1320 AD.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2016 4:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig Peters wrote:
On what basis is the painting that Mart shared dated to 1320?

The style of art looks very different from early 14th century art. It's much more consistent with what we see closer to 1350 AD onward. The soldier with his visor raised up looks like he is wearing a coat of plates or perhaps a breastplate covered with fabric, rather than mail with a few additions as one would expect for 1320 AD.


The Crucifixion of Pietro Lorenzetti is dated by various art historians between 1315-1330. The helmet in uestion is at the lower left.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7d/Pietro_Lorenzetti_-_Crucifixion_-_WGA13513.jpg
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pietro_Lorenzetti

Fabric covered pairs of plates appear in the last third of the previous century, and are quite common by the 13-teens.

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James Arlen Gillaspie
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Location: upstate NY
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2016 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pesky time travelers. I often wonder if damage hasn't been painted over (a Siennese fresco c. 1340 showing uncovered breastplates provoked me to wonder), but that doesn't seem to be the case here.
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Anthony Hart




Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2016 1:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It doesn't seem to be depicted very well with the visor and funny thing on top, but as it dates from 1370 its not impossible that there were helms with a flared back edge, sallets had to come from some where after all. However it's nothing to go basing your next kit over.
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Mark Moore




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PostPosted: Sun 11 Dec, 2016 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm...That is kind of a 'funny thing' on top. A raised brow-ridge of some kind maybe? It appears to be one piece that comes all the way down to the face opening of the helm. Question Curious..... WTF?! .........McM
''Life is like a box of chocolates...'' --- F. Gump
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