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Jon Makar




Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Joined: 07 May 2012
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 7:04 pm    Post subject: What Is This Longsword? Place? Time? Then and Now?         Reply with quote

Hello Fellow Forumites,

So, I have been lurking on myArmoury for years now, imbibing information, biding my time, waiting. All of my many, many questions pertaining to arms and armour have been answered via nothing any more difficult than a simple keyword search. This is an amazing site; a diamond in the rough in terms of historical discussion.

My questions are pertaining to the following ~ 15th century sword that I recently stumbled across a picture of on Pinterest (dangerous, I know). This is the only picture of this particular piece that I have found, and I can find nothing else pertaining to it, even after searching the treasure trove that is myArmoury. My questions are: what are its place of origin, the exact decades of the 15th century that the sword is dated to, where it resides now, can anyone provide me with any other pictures of it, and is it even an historical piece? Also, in terms of modern classification of it's form, would you all consider it to be a Type XVa blade, with a Type J pommel? Also, would the crossguard be a Type 7 one with a pointed, flared écusson, or a Type 8 that is curved towards the blade? Also also, with respect to it being a legitimate historical specimen, it seems to be in amazing condition, thus I wonder if it has been modified along its long journey. It is an absolutely beautiful sword, and is quickly growing to be among my list of favourite historical longswords, so I would appreciate any amount of information that you guys can find for me.

Thank you all, and have a great evening,

Jon Makar



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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 7:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can find this sword described on page 135 of Oakeshott's 'Records of the Medieval Sword'. He calls it an XV, with cross type 8 (curved). He dates it 1400-1450 but notes that some experts of his day thought it might be a 19th century fake.
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Lloyd Winter




Location: Los Angeles
Joined: 27 Aug 2011

Posts: 172

PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 8:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it's in the Met but I couldn't find it in a quick search
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 9:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You or somebody else took the image from our article:

Spotlight: Oakeshott Type XV Swords

Simple read about it there.

Quote:
XV.4 From the Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York
This well-preserved sword is likely Italian and from the first half of the 15th century. The blade shows pitting, but the hilt is in near perfect condition. Pommel and cross are of bronze-gilt and the grip is made of greenish-black horn, supported on each side with vertical bronze-gilt strips. The upper third of the blade has a flattened central rib. Despite having a rather long grip (5.25"), this sword is still a Type XV.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Del Tin makes a version of it. Read our hands-on reivew.

It comes with all-steel fittings or bronze/brass fittings.

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Jon Makar




Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Joined: 07 May 2012
Likes: 30 pages

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 9:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hmmm....perhaps my suspicions of its authenticity are correct then. And how did I overlook that!? I've definitely read that page before - maybe I just was only paying attention to the XVa's, and I honestly thought that this specimen was a XVa! Whelp, better start reading again!

It's funny, as soon as I began doubting it's authenticity, I noticed that the crossguard almost seems too thick compared to other historical specimens, and that the wheel pommel subtended by that tapered block looks as though it is a Type J with a peen block turned upside down. And a greenish horn grip? Are there any accounts of 15th century swords with horn grips? Dubious indeed...What are your guys' thoughts on its authenticity?

Also, what do you guys know anything about the longsword below? The Pinterest poster said that it was dated from 1300-1350, located in Reichsstadtmuseum, Rothenburg, Germany. Is it a longsword of German make? Is that an accurate assessment of the period it was in use? The brass inlays on it are gorgeous!

Thanks again,

Jon Makar



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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 28 Sep, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pinterest... the biggest intellectual property and copyright law breaker of them all.

That image is mine, too. I created it. You can read about it on our Facebook Page where I published it:

Click here to see the image and read more about it

Everything from the Rothenburg Collection needs to be looked at with scrutiny and suspicion. Many, many things in that collection are fakes; perhaps old, but not from the period depicted. I suspect that sword in question is one of them.

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Jon Makar




Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Joined: 07 May 2012
Likes: 30 pages

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 5:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Nathan, you're grrrrreat! *Tony Tiger*

Though I am sad about all of your photos being ripped and posted on Pinterest. I will duly note that about the Rothenburg collection. It's too bad that there are so many people who couldn't just enjoy history at its face value and beauty; that so many had to change what they saw to what they wanted everyone else to see.

Ok, so, last one I promise!!! Anybody know anything about this longsword? It looks northern without a doubt...And, following popular trend, it's probably also Mr. Robinson's photo.

Thanks again,

Jon Makar



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JG Elmslie
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Location: Scotland
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In an unprecedented shocker, that one is in fact from the musée de l'Armée, Paris.

Despite the fact that everyone and their cat on the internet claims its a "danish two handed sword", Its German, hand and a half, 15th century (dated to 1480). in the catalogues, its N° D’inventaire 1962 PO ; J

1.26m (49.6inches for those who've yet to join the rest of the world)

another photo here:
http://www.photo.rmn.fr/archive/06-527119-2C6NU0PL82NT.html
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Mark Lewis





Joined: 19 Apr 2014

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon Makar wrote:
Anybody know anything about this longsword? It looks northern without a doubt...

It's now in the Musée de l'Armée, in Paris. Once belonged to the 19th c. collector Karl Gimbel.

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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 9:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, I recognize the no. 355 on this pic to be exposed too at the Musée de l'Armée, just next to their beautiful (and famous) falchion.

I must add that the staff of the Musée de l'Armée is awesome. I asked them for more details about the falchion and a beautiful type XIV which is the same showcase, and they very kindly flooded me with datas and photographies. So I guess that if you want to know more about these swords, you can ask.
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Mark Lewis





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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 10:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guillaume Vauthier wrote:
Wow, I recognize the no. 355 on this pic to be exposed too at the Musée de l'Armée, just next to their beautiful (and famous) falchion.

I must add that the staff of the Musée de l'Armée is awesome. I asked them for more details about the falchion and a beautiful type XIV which is the same showcase, and they very kindly flooded me with datas and photographies. So I guess that if you want to know more about these swords, you can ask.

Hadn't noticed that one! no. 356 is also in the same display case. The Musée acquired quite a few other pieces from the Gimbel collection... a few more are in other museums or passed through other well known private collections. The Gimbel catalogue can be downloaded from the University Library in Heidelberg.

Was there someone specific that you contacted at the museum? There are several swords I would also like more details on... For simplicity, maybe I should just request all their photos? Razz
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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Lewis wrote:
Hadn't noticed that one! no. 356 is also in the same display case. The Musée acquired quite a few other pieces from the Gimbel collection... a few more are in other museums or passed through other well known private collections. The Gimbel catalogue can be downloaded from the University Library in Heidelberg.

Was there someone specific that you contacted at the museum? There are several swords I would also like more details on... For simplicity, maybe I should just request all their photos? Razz

Gosh, If you would like to have like 5 to 10 pics of each weapon, it must take like a thousand volumes! That would be so cool!
This place is a true treasure. And there must be like hundreds or thousand pieces hidden in the reserves that can't be seen.

In fact, I saw the so badass adaptation of the Invalides falchion by Maciej Kopciuch, and thought that its weight (1,5kg) was quite enormous for an average 1-handed falchion, so I decided to ask them to know if it was true. Then I received several pics and parameters, and asked too for the type XIV in the same case, as it was certainly contemporary and is stunningly similar in construction (and probably in using).

Then I get very sexy photos!

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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Guillaume Vauthier wrote:
Then I received several pics and parameters, and asked too for the type XIV in the same case, as it was certainly contemporary and is stunningly similar in construction (and probably in using).


Do you have any more information on that XIV (dimensions, links, other photos?). The hilt looks familiar but I don't think I've every seen the whole sword before. Nice to see something a bit different in the XIV family.
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Guillaume Vauthier




Location: France
Joined: 16 Jun 2016

Posts: 155

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 2:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

J.D. Crawford wrote:
Guillaume Vauthier wrote:
Then I received several pics and parameters, and asked too for the type XIV in the same case, as it was certainly contemporary and is stunningly similar in construction (and probably in using).


Do you have any more information on that XIV (dimensions, links, other photos?). The hilt looks familiar but I don't think I've every seen the whole sword before. Nice to see something a bit different in the XIV family.

Of course. Here are the few specs that I had for this one :

Full length: 870mm

Blade length: 710mm
Blade width at guard: 65mm
Blade width at middle of the blade: 55mm
Blade width before the tip: 30mm
Fuller length: 425mm
Fuller width: 20mm

Handle length: 160mm
Grip length: ~95mm

Crossguard length (Oakeshott type 2): 160mm

Bronze pommel, dodecagonal section with slighty concave sides, with peen block
Pommel length: 45mm
Pommel width: 55mm

Weight: 980g
PoB: about 16cm from crossguard

Here is a zoom on handle:

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Jon Makar




Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Joined: 07 May 2012
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ooh, the 353 is so very lovely! And the Type XIV and falchion are also beautiful! Thanks for sharing everyone!
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J.D. Crawford




Location: Toronto
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 5:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Merci, Guillaume.
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Jon Makar




Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
Joined: 07 May 2012
Likes: 30 pages

Posts: 47

PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 5:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

My next question is: how common is the curved variety of Type 8 crossguard? It seems to appear on more arming swords than longswords, par example,

http://wallacelive.wallacecollection.org/eMus...detailView

OR

http://sword-site.com/thread/159/oakeshott-ty...eval-sword

Does it happen to appear on any longswords that we know for sure are authentic? Because the two first swords that I asked about on this post (the first sort of hand and a half-ish "Type XV" with the goofy pommel and horn grip, and the second one with brass inlays) are both possibly not authentic historical pieces. Would one consider the third German longsword that I posted to have a curved Type 8 guard, or would that be considered a Type 7 or other type of guard? Do you guys have any other examples of longswords with a curved Type 8 crossguard that you could show me?
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Check out page 4 of our Oakeshott article:

http://myArmoury.com/feature_oakeshott4.html

Cross-guards are defined by styles. That first sword looks more like a Style 9 to me... but I'm no expert due to typology only being somewhat interesting to me and only looked quickly.

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Sep, 2016 10:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jon Makar wrote:
Also, what do you guys know anything about the longsword below? The Pinterest poster said that it was dated from 1300-1350, located in Reichsstadtmuseum, Rothenburg, Germany. Is it a longsword of German make? Is that an accurate assessment of the period it was in use? The brass inlays on it are gorgeous!


Have a look at Manning Imperial's recreation here:

https://www.facebook.com/manningimperial/photos/?tab=album&album_id=1100841756621219




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