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J. Kemp




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 01 Apr 2016

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 11:25 am    Post subject: Original "Enclosed Helmets/Templar helms"?         Reply with quote

First, I'll say "Hullo" to the forum in general.

Now, onto the question.

Last year I stumbled across a design of early/mid medieval helmet, the enclosed helmet, that I was fond of and I attempted to make my own based off pictures of those that I found in modern sellers' stock.
Now my metalworking skills have improved I would like to try to make a decent, authentic one but I cannot find any photographs of originals to base it off.
While it is true that on the helmet's Wikipedia article there is a relatively clear historical drawing showing a side view that I could use for reference, I was wondering if anyone knew of some actual, physical originals as opposed to drawings.
An example of why drawings are not enough for me to use is that because the side views do not show whether it is a vertical fold down the front of the helmet, or a curve, etc.
Indeed, most sellers do not even mark it as an "enclosed helmet" rather to call them things such as "crusader helmet" or "Templar helmet".
Can anyone direct me towards pictures of originals, or are they something that we know of purely because of historical paintings/drawings?
To clarify, by "originals" I mean remains of original helmets that have survived to the present day.

If someone could suggest anything on this, that would be great.


Thanks
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 11:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You require original examples?

Not many of them survive, but here are those that I am aware off;

Location unknown to me, dated 1250-1300;





Helm hung over tomb of Sir Richard Pembridge, d. 1375;


The Dargen example, d. 1270;


The Madeln example, d. 1290-1300;


From Aranäs, Westgotland, d. 1300;



From Bozen, Tirol, d. 1300;



Grafschaft Mark Museum, d. late 13th century;


Nürnberg Museum, d. 1350;





Hope this is useful enough,

Mario

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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J. Kemp




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 01 Apr 2016

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Mario!

I had seen some of these pictures before but assumed they were great helms.
That significantly widens my choice in designs to base it off.

Thanks again Happy
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,280

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Perhaps a link to the sort of helmet you had in mind as a "Templar" or "Crusader" helmet would help others respond to your question more directly.

P.S. The "Grafschaft Mark Museum, d. late 13th century" helm is almost certainly a fake. I wouldn't base anything on it.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
P.S. The "Grafschaft Mark Museum, d. late 13th century" helm is almost certainly a fake. I wouldn't base anything on it.


Edit; wrong information.

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena


Last edited by Mario M. on Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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J. Kemp




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 01 Apr 2016

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Perhaps a link to the sort of helmet you had in mind as a "Templar" or "Crusader" helmet would help others respond to your question more directly..


You're completely right, I should have supplied more information.
Here is one of the drawings on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosed_helmet#/media/File:Iwein-laudine-ring.jpg


Here is one by Windlass marked as a "transitional helm"
http://windlass.com/wsc_product/transitional-helmet/


And this is just one I found on Google images:
https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://www.dekoase.com/verkkokauppa/images/temppeliritari_kypara.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.dekoase.com/verkkokauppa/product_info.php?products_id%3D498%26language%3Den&h=698&w=740&tbnid=YhTGNU2GERj5vM:&docid=dxK6qzFk17UqaM&ei=ZT8AV-ifNYGjUpK1krgD&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwio5oC7-PDLAhWBkRQKHZKaBDcQMwghKAQwBA


**Edit**
I had actually intended to show pictures in the original post, but obviously forgot to do it.
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Mario M.




Location: Croatia
Joined: 31 Mar 2016

Posts: 107

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe you will have to accept images effigies if that helmet type is your goal, I do not know of a surviving example.

Here are some effigy links I had saved up;

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1551/1556/

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Wells%20...20631b.JPG

http://www.themcs.org/armour/knights/Wells%20...20636b.JPG

http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1174698
+
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1174722


http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1725/2709/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1483/1488/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1271/1316/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1262/2853/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/2633/19923/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1181/1241/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/3611/3163/

http://effigiesandbrasses.com/1190/1250/

“The stream of Time, irresistible, ever moving, carries off and bears away all things that come to birth and plunges them into utter darkness...Nevertheless, the science of History is a great bulwark against this stream of Time; in a way it checks this irresistible flood, it holds in a tight grasp whatever it can seize floating on the surface and will not allow it to slip away into the depths of Oblivion." - Anna Comnena
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J. Kemp




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 01 Apr 2016

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 3:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK.
I did wonder if that would be the case...
The biggest thing I was looking for was different perspectives, so I have all those links saved now.

Thanks again for the help, guys.
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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2012

Posts: 1,280

PostPosted: Sat 02 Apr, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those are helms, early or proto-great helms if you will. Modern slang for the ones with a slightly domed or pointed top is the "salt shaker" helm, due to it's resemblence to the caps on glass tabletop salt shakers. The style generally shows up around the year 1200, although they were preceded for about 20 years by domed and Phrygian topped helms with face masks. By 1225, they had gotten longer in the nape, eventually receiving an additional plate over the back of the neck. Many modern reproductions get a number of details wrong compared to the artwork. The medieval examples never have a cross reinforce over the face and eyes of this style helm, for example.

Aachen Cathedral, Karlsshrein, 1215: http://www.bildindex.de/bilder/MI00007g09a.jpg

Saint-Maurice d'Agaune, Shrine of Abbot Nantelm, 1225: http://www.boutiques-theophile.com/upload/art.../z1541.jpg (On the bench to his right.)

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4125/7283/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4572/11745/
http://imgc.allpostersimages.com/images/P-473...terium.jpg

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4885/14173/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4784/12575/
http://www.veldeke-kreis.de/veldeke/eneit_III_gross.jpg

http://armourinart.com/122/171/

Chartres Cathedral. c.1215:



 Attachment: 149.96 KB
(SG) Chartres Cathedral 07.15-belt.jpg


 Attachment: 99.24 KB
(SG) Chartres Cathedral Beaumont.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Collin D




Location: Upper Peninsula, MI
Joined: 23 Jun 2013

Posts: 25

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2016 12:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Not surviving examples, but off the top of my head I know that there are a few modern manufacturers of high quality helms of this type that might be useful as reference. Patryk Nieczarowski (here on the forum) makes a fair number that look like something you'd expect to see from someone who stepped out of a time machine after a campaign: see here, here (you'll have to scroll to the right a bit), or this thread. Thorkil also makes a much more decorated, "bling-y" version, seen here.
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J. Kemp




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 01 Apr 2016

Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2016 12:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I was aware that the early/proto great helm was a name for them, but did not think to throw in those names into to the original post to give more clarity as to what style of helmet.

Thanks also for offering the information about it, Mart, as on the first one I made I did put a cross over the face.
Just as much, I was not aware of the name "salt shaker" helm which seems to be the most commonly used way of refering to it judging by Google results.

Anyway, those effigies are going to benefit the authenticity of the project tremendously, so thanks for all the help Mart and Mario!



**Edit**
Thanks for sharing those links Collin as some of those do look like they are based off the helms shown in the effigies, giving me more "depth" to work with.. Obviously it is easier to base something off a drawing with perspective as opposed to a drawing without.
Although, this one offered by Mart does show a lot about the shape, on the guy being stabbed to the right.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4885/14173/


Thanks again!
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