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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 02 Feb, 2005 5:36 pm    Post subject: Comparing the A&A Gustav Vasa and DT2161         Reply with quote

These posts were split from This Topic as they were substantially off-topic to that conversation but worthy of discussion on their own.

Rod Walker wrote:
http://www.myArmoury.com/review_aa_vasa.html

This is my dream 16thc sword.(Nathan you lucky bugger) I do love this weapon. At this stage I cannot afford the A&A version so I am looking at the cheaper Deltin version.


I don't own the Vasa any more. When I purchased it, I really bought it as a review sample only so had told myself I'd sell it soon after buying it. Trust me when Is say it was a hard one to sell!

What do you mean Del Tin version? There's really not a Gustav Vasa replica from Del Tin. Maybe you mean the DT2161? If so, just take note that they're completely different weapons with extremely little in common dynamically or otherwise. They're both fine swords, but just not similar in any way.

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Rod Walker




Location: NSW, Australia.
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 6:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Nathan, you are correct, it is the DT2161 and it is a different sword to the A&A Vasa.

Have you handled the DT 2161? I am after a cavalry weapon that I can use in my shows doing cutting with. Is the DT suitable, and decent quality, or should I just wait until I can afford the A&A Vasa?

Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod Walker wrote:
Hi Nathan, you are correct, it is the DT2161 and it is a different sword to the A&A Vasa.

Have you handled the DT 2161? I am after a cavalry weapon that I can use in my shows doing cutting with. Is the DT suitable, and decent quality, or should I just wait until I can afford the A&A Vasa?


I owned the DT2161 as well. Check out my collection gallery for photos and stats. While it's a wonderful sword, especially consdering its price point, it's not really suitable for cutting. Del Tins are not sharpened, and while you could add an edge to them, the geometry would not be completely right as an end-product. The Gustav Vasa is not something I'd necessarily consider a cavalry sword, personally. I'd say it was more of a pure rapier, albeit stout when compared to later-period types. I'm not sure I'd use it for cutting, either: especially off horseback.




Looking at the two photos stacked above, you can see very little in common with these two weapons.

Have you looked at Arms & Armor's offering: #164 Cavalier Rapier?

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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 9:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod, just use your DUKE Big Grin

Actually, Brother, if you want "cost effective" I have been using the MRL European Sword. I don't think that I would want to take it into battle, but it cuts through cabbages, melons, and tatami mats pretty well.

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know if I'd consider the Gustav Vasa a pure rapier (assuming you are meaning the primarily thrusting type). I would consider it a "sidesword", meant for cut and thrust fencing, though I agree that it doesn't seem suited for cavalry fighting.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If any long-ish sword of the general era will serve, MRL's Scottish Backsword (now discontinued) might be a reasonable candidate for cavalry use. Calling up this and the Dresden in the "Compare" feature of this site shows just how much bigger the Dresden is, but the MRL SB is inexpensive, probably of a useable length, has a simple compound hilt, etc. You can have mine...when you pry it out of my cold, dead hand Razz
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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William Goodwin




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
If any long-ish sword of the general era will serve, MRL's Scottish Backsword (now discontinued) might be a reasonable candidate for cavalry use. Calling up this and the Dresden in the "Compare" feature of this site shows just how much bigger the Dresden is, but the MRL SB is inexpensive, probably of a useable length, has a simple compound hilt, etc. You can have mine...when you pry it out of my cold, dead hand Razz



I can whole-heartly agree with you Sean as far as the last sentence of your post. Wink

Rod, another option you might look at is a Darkwood Side-sword. The one I just got a week or so back is very nice, oh and Vladimir Cervenka makes a good looking cavalry sword too.


Bill

sucky pic I know



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Last edited by William Goodwin on Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:19 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 12:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rod;

There is also this one from MRL, though I have yet to hold it, and heck, it might be discontinued by now since I only found it in the Silvermane listing: http://www.silvermane.com/swords_broad-sword-double-ring.html I was thinking of getting one myself for some time, as it seems to have most of the qualities I'm looking for in a good horseman's sword. It's got a 36" blade and a reasonably complex hilt, and without a knuckle-guard you can still grab it with a mitten gauntlet if you so desire. I would love to know if anyone has any experience with this particular model, and know if it's still available.

The catalogue states that it's 46" overall, with a 36" blade 1" at the base, and weighs in at a hefty 3.6 pounds, and goes for $275 (at least the page I have bookmarked does, might have been changed at some point recently, who knows. But it's somewhere to start, at least.)

Good luck in your search!

Cheers,

Gordon



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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah! And just lacquer the hilt!

"I see some bright steel and I want to paint it black" (apologies to the Rolling Stones)

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon,
This sword was the first MRL purchase I ever made (in 1996 or 1997). The hilt was nickel-plated, and some was flaking off. The wire wrap wasn't tight. One of the side rings had been bent, and may have been cracked where it joined the guard (or it could have been a crack in the plating). Best of all, the blade rotated in its mounting 10-15 degrees.

Hopefully I just got a crappy one and they've improved things since then.

Happy

ChadA

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But all that adds up to CHEAP on the used market! Sounds like a good project sword.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Lloyd Clark




Location: Beaver Dam, WI
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I always thoght that this was a great sword - used it many hundreds of times from horseback (cutting and spearing!) and it moved well, struck clean, and was lively in the hand:

http://www.swordsofhonor.com/cutandthruss.html Eek! Eek! Eek!

Cheers,

Lloyd Clark
2000 World Jousting Champion
2004 World Jousting Bronze Medalist
Swordmaster
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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 1:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Gordon,
This sword was the first MRL purchase I ever made (in 1996 or 1997). The hilt was nickel-plated, and some was flaking off. The wire wrap wasn't tight. One of the side rings had been bent, and may have been cracked where it joined the guard (or it could have been a crack in the plating). Best of all, the blade rotated in its mounting 10-15 degrees.

Hopefully I just got a crappy one and they've improved things since then.


Chad;

Yikes! Doesn't sound good at all! Well... but as Sean said, might be a cheap one on the used market out there! Then again, when one thing is a problem it tends to suggest that there are more in there to be found "later". I liked the length and bredth of the blade, as well as the general look, but only having one in hand will really tell you anything about it.

Anyway, Chad, thanks for the update on that sword. I always liked the look, but never could quite get past other things.

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 2:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gordon Frye wrote:
Chad;

Yikes! Doesn't sound good at all! Well... but as Sean said, might be a cheap one on the used market out there! Then again, when one thing is a problem it tends to suggest that there are more in there to be found "later". I liked the length and bredth of the blade, as well as the general look, but only having one in hand will really tell you anything about it.

Anyway, Chad, thanks for the update on that sword. I always liked the look, but never could quite get past other things.

Gordon


In all fairness, this was years ago. When was this discontinued? If recently (as in the last year or two), the rumored imporvements may have made it worth it.

Happy

ChadA

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Rod Walker




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for that guys. I have some thinking to do.
Cheers

Rod
Jouster
www.jousting.com.au

"Come! Let us lay a lance in rest,
And tilt at windmills under a wild sky!
For who would live so petty and unblessed
That dare not tilt at something, ere he die?"
--Errantry, John Galsworthy
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 6:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chad Arnow wrote:
Gordon,
This sword was the first MRL purchase I ever made (in 1996 or 1997). The hilt was nickel-plated, and some was flaking off. The wire wrap wasn't tight. One of the side rings had been bent, and may have been cracked where it joined the guard (or it could have been a crack in the plating). Best of all, the blade rotated in its mounting 10-15 degrees.

Hopefully I just got a crappy one and they've improved things since then.


I had a similar experience and sent my sword back. The wire wrap literally fell off of mine. This was about 8 years ago. My experiences with MRL in recent times have been much improved. Having said that, I still wouldn't recommend this particular sword because the hilt components have a real bad "punched out sheet metal" look to them. They lack any shaping and subtlety. On mine and others I've seen, the top of the pommel has a weird counter-sunk capstan nut that got stripped on the examples I've seen, making the pommel continually turn.

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Gordon Frye




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 6:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nathan Robinson wrote:
Chad Arnow wrote:
Gordon,
This sword was the first MRL purchase I ever made (in 1996 or 1997). The hilt was nickel-plated, and some was flaking off. The wire wrap wasn't tight. One of the side rings had been bent, and may have been cracked where it joined the guard (or it could have been a crack in the plating). Best of all, the blade rotated in its mounting 10-15 degrees.

Hopefully I just got a crappy one and they've improved things since then.


I had a similar experience and sent my sword back. The wire wrap literally fell off of mine. This was about 8 years ago. My experiences with MRL in recent times have been much improved. Having said that, I still wouldn't recommend this particular sword because the hilt components have a real bad "punched out sheet metal" look to them. They lack any shaping and subtlety. On mine and others I've seen, the top of the pommel has a weird counter-sunk capstan nut that got stripped on the examples I've seen, making the pommel continually turn.


Whoa! Double Glad I didn't bother with this one then! Too bad that some pictures make total POS look good, while other pictures in websites for really high-quality swords like A&A and Albion just don't do them justice. Thus one more reason for thanking you for the website, and all of the participants on this forum for putting information out there that DOES do justice to the products, both good and bad. So thanks! I for one appreciate these honest reviews.

Cheers,

Gordon

"After God, we owe our victory to our Horses"
Gonsalo Jimenez de Quesada
http://www.renaissancesoldier.com/
http://historypundit.blogspot.com/
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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Sean Mentioned, the MRL "Scottish Backsword" is an awesome sword, especially for the price. I'd probably consider it a sidearm to a lance or a secondary weapon of a pikeman, rather than a true cavalry weapon. I'd like to get my hands on the MRL sword that Lloyd mentioned. As I stated previously, my experience with MRL in recent years is that they deliver a product worth the asking price and often more. No, they don't compare to products costing 3-4 times more, but that wouldn't be a reasonable expectation.

I still put forth the Arms & Armor #164 Cavalier Rapier as a top-notch candidate for any late 16th/early 17th century cavalry kit in the same range as the Dresden.

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2005 9:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having owned the Cavalier I can strongly recommend it as well. While it isn't the brute that the Dresden is it would fill this role quite nicely. It's also handier than the Dresden and would do well in sword and buckler use as well. I kind of regret getting rid of mine. It went away along with my other A&A rapiers because I was narrowing the focus of my collection, but I do miss those swords from time to time.
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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