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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 5:55 am    Post subject: diagonal oriented armour, functional?         Reply with quote

In this case im talking, for example, about the brigadine/ early COP style armour worn by the Stark family in the Game of Thrones series

this got me thinking as to whether the fact the plates being oriented in a diagonal fashion makes them less effective... my logic is based on the fact that a lot of sword cuts are delivered as diagonal strikes, rather the issue i see is that a diagonal strike might be more capable of striking the armour along the gaps between the plates.

any thoughts about whether this actually poses a significant issue?



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Robb stark in full armour
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 7:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Real coats of plates and brigandines have plates which overlap so orientation is irrelevant because there is no openings between the plates. But orientation such as on this picture is going to produce parts of armour with areas tricky to cover with plates or plates would have to be of complicated shapes. Regular orientation of plates makes it easy to make the best coverage of body with simply shaped plates.
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Michael Parker




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 7:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would be concerned first about flexibility. All segmented armor has to wrap around the body so it can be worn, preferably in a way that allows the armor to be laid flat or folded up when it's not being worn, and allow the wearer to bend their torso to a reasonable extend. The human abdomen bends along a horizontal axis (the waist/hips), and the torso turns around a vertical axis (the spine). It would be one thing if the plates overlapped and were relatively small, and quilted cloth armor can be stitched diagonally because the whole material is flexible anyway, but such large diagonal CoP plates look like they would be stiffer on an up/down left/right orientation, which is not good for fighting in. Perhaps the biggest problem is that since they are joined together end to end, instead of overlapping, there is not really a means for the armor to scrunch up or compress where it needs to bend. In that sense it is more like splint armor than a brigandine, which is a legitimate form of armor in other cases. You can bend in a diagonal direction while wearing normal armor by simply bending forward and turning left/right at the same time, and most normal armor is articulated to allow a certain amount of compression of the lames on one side or the other, so there really isn't any need for the armor to have creases in a diagonal plane.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 12:31 pm    Post subject: Re: diagonal oriented armour, functional?         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
In this case im talking, for example, about the brigadine/ early COP style armour worn by the Stark family in the Game of Thrones series

It isn't "brigadine/ early COP style". It is "Hollywood Highlander" style. As Luka said, the plates in real armour overlap. The above example is even more stupid than most. The whole costume is pretty silly.

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Sancar O.





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PostPosted: Thu 06 Nov, 2014 10:39 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think it is a brigandine; it looks like some sort of thick leather tunic with a diagonal rectangular pattern stamped on it. Rivets look to be ornamental.George Martin is a big fan of boiled leather armour in the books, so this might be costume designer's intrepretation.
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: diagonal oriented armour, functional?         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
William P wrote:
In this case im talking, for example, about the brigadine/ early COP style armour worn by the Stark family in the Game of Thrones series

It isn't "brigadine/ early COP style". It is "Hollywood Highlander" style. As Luka said, the plates in real armour overlap. The above example is even more stupid than most. The whole costume is pretty silly.


as a matter of fact, http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l141/Oldwolfe/cop2.jpg in the earliest days of coat of plates at the last quarter of the 13th century, as well as in asia we did see a form of COP which had non ovverlapping rectangular pieces like in the link above.
however it appears to have been more of an anomoly.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons..._dou_4.JPG the japanese counterpart.

and im aware it's hollywoodised, but it seems to be trying to replicate a COP style armour or similar.
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 3:53 am    Post subject: Re: diagonal oriented armour, functional?         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
Dan Howard wrote:
William P wrote:
In this case im talking, for example, about the brigadine/ early COP style armour worn by the Stark family in the Game of Thrones series

It isn't "brigadine/ early COP style". It is "Hollywood Highlander" style. As Luka said, the plates in real armour overlap. The above example is even more stupid than most. The whole costume is pretty silly.


as a matter of fact, http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l141/Oldwolfe/cop2.jpg in the earliest days of coat of plates at the last quarter of the 13th century, as well as in asia we did see a form of COP which had non ovverlapping rectangular pieces like in the link above.
however it appears to have been more of an anomoly.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons..._dou_4.JPG the japanese counterpart.

and im aware it's hollywoodised, but it seems to be trying to replicate a COP style armour or similar.


Are you sure the one from your first link is based on a real armour? It looks like a braveheart film replica... The Japanese one at least has mail between the plates...
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Nov, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: diagonal oriented armour, functional?         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Are you sure the one from your first link is based on a real armour? It looks like a braveheart film replica... .

I did a Google search for "Braveheart armour" and that exact photo came up. As far as I can tell, that movie is when this nonsense started.

Does anyone know of an earlier movie with this type of costume?

Mail and plates is the only construction that doesn't need overlapping plates.

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Ralph Grinly





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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 3:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm pretty sure I've seen earlier Hollywood films with similar styles to that Brave Heart "Armour". Can't think of a specific example though. What I *did* just notice though is that bracer on his arm - with arrowheaded spikes ? Let's hear it for taking Hollywood as examples of 'real' armour ! Happy Believe me - .the folks who actually made, and USED armour in REAL Life situations of llfe and death knew what worked, and what didn't.
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah the arrow head bracer was Mel Gibson's own idea. He thought it would be useful for delivering a backhand blow.
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William P




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 4:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_yDLLneTuGJA/SjZAnysEwUI...urcoat.jpg heres a much better example,

i first heard of the example of non overlapping plates it from 'knight, noble warrior of england' for a C1290 English knight, i think that kind aof armour is known as a reinforced surcoat, and it was added on top of the maille, however it seems to be short lived since it was likely superseded by the COP
and finally i found the reference for it
it's a small statue or carving dated to around 1270 in this case there are clear lines showing plates that are not touching/ overlapping on either side.

i didnt realise the armour i linked was a braveheart replica.. i dfeel suitably embarrassed

however i think arguing over whether they could exist or not is moot, i think i have enough evidence to understand whether the stark armour would be decently functional.



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armored_surcoat Weinhausen Monestary 1270.jpg
example of an 'armoured surcoat' from the Weinhausen Monestary, apparently dated to the 1270's
in this case there are clear lines showing plates that are not touching/ overlapping on either side.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 4:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

One interpretation is that each plate has four holes on the top and bottom edges and the outer holes overlap with their neighbours on either side.
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William P




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 5:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
One interpretation is that each plate has four holes on the top and bottom edges and the outer holes overlap with their neighbours on either side.

thats a possibility as well which crossed my mind looking at other coat of plate designs,

the question that i wonder is the dark lines between each plate, i cant help but wonder if that indicates a gap between them

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2744/4329165066_88a2abf4b1_z.jpg i think that this is what a more normal early COP looks like, less rivets, just top and bottom rivets for what are clearly longer plates. http://www.loricamos.vizz.pl/?l=/Products/Bri...Type%20III this is much lpater, a wisby COP which is mid 14th century, but it does show how it could look. although , that explains the vertical seperated lines but there are horizontal ones too, that might indicate 3 rows of smaller plates, overlapping or not.


also whats slightly worrying is that the image of the 'braveheart' COP was actually an image drawn from an ESSAY on the latins in byzantium surrounding the 1204 seige https://www.academia.edu/7545700/The_Franks_in_Byzantium_Their_Successes_and_Impact_on_the_Hellenic_World_1204-1388
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 8:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The closest thing in appearance that springs to mind is from the wall paintings at Björsäter Kyrka.


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Bjorsater Reconstruction.jpg


ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui


Last edited by Mart Shearer on Sat 08 Nov, 2014 3:54 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 1:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
also whats slightly worrying is that the image of the 'braveheart' COP was actually an image drawn from an ESSAY on the latins in byzantium surrounding the 1204 seige https://www.academia.edu/7545700/The_Franks_in_Byzantium_Their_Successes_and_Impact_on_the_Hellenic_World_1204-1388

He has fallen for Dawson's misconception that lammellar was superior to mail. Why would he cherry-pick Comnena's accout from Dyrrhachion in which the type of armour is never mentioned and ignore the same author when she specifically says that Frankish mail was invulnerable against arrows? I've read the Alexiad several times and can't find anything that tells us what armour Alexios wore. Byzantine officers seem to have preferred mail, why wouldn't Alexios wear mail too? We have plenty of accounts of mail resisting mounted lances exactly as described in her anecdote.

Quote:
the question that i wonder is the dark lines between each plate, i cant help but wonder if that indicates a gap between them

The lines would be pronounced if the plates overlap

The "Sleeping Guard" is usually said to be wearing an armoured surcoat. True coats of plates come along later. It is probable the the COP evolved from the armoured surcoat.

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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
The closest thing in appearance that springs to mind is from the wall paintings at Börsäter Kyrka.

Any idea how old these are? The church was originally built in the 12th century but most of it has been rebuilt since then.
Apparently only the southern wall is original.

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 3:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,

If I remember the paintings are listed as c. 1325. The boards were salvaged from the old church to be re-used as firewood, but someone noticed they had been painted and notified authorities.

(I also left a "J" out of the name in my original post, since edited. It's Björsäter )

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Michael G.





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PostPosted: Sat 08 Nov, 2014 5:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding the Wienhausen sleeping knight, I see no reason to think that it shows anything different from what was typical of the coat of plates -- I see it as having overlapping plates, each with four holes and four rivets, each rivet going through one plate only.
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Jonathan Keogh





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PostPosted: Sun 09 Nov, 2014 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
also whats slightly worrying is that the image of the 'braveheart' COP was actually an image drawn from an ESSAY on the latins in byzantium surrounding the 1204 seige https://www.academia.edu/7545700/The_Franks_in_Byzantium_Their_Successes_and_Impact_on_the_Hellenic_World_1204-1388


As the writer of this 'worrying' essay, I'd just like to say that the image of the Braveheart replica wasn't necessarily drawn from my work. The link which I referenced was a random picture of a reproduction of the COP, and I had no idea that it was taken from this film (if I did, i wouldn't have used it), but if you go to the link it brings up my work for some reason Razz I only used it because I thought that it held a similar resemblance that which is shown on the Wienhausen sleeping knight.

I'd also just like to go on the record saying that this was my absolute very first encounter with Byzantine warfare and whatnot, so I apologise for any shortcomings and errors (my main area is religion and politics in Late Antiquity). It was also only my undergrad dissertation, so it wasn't written to hold any significant weight at all! Laughing Out Loud

Nonetheless, this thread has been interesting, and I have often wondered similar things when watching Game of Thrones and other historical/fantasy films and shows.
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