Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Faceted Rondels on a Dagger Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Reading list: 5 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sat 21 Jun, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Faceted Rondels on a Dagger         Reply with quote

I'm in a desperate quest to hunt down documentation for the Arms and Armor Rondel dagger's faceted style rondels in the late 14th / early 15th centuries. The A&A site description says the piece is based on an example in a 1379 fresco by the artist 'Altichino' which I believe is an erroneous spelling of the Italian fresco artist Altichiero da Zevio. No real luck spotting any daggers with enough detail to discern a faceted rondel in his work.

Here's the A&A piece:


There is an extant piece here on the rondel dagger myArmoury feature article dated to the Early 15th from a River Thames find. I can't find any specific information on that dagger other than the photo and caption here on this website. I've had no luck on the Museum of London's website which is where the article here claims it's housed. Does anyone know anything more about that dagger from a scholarly source, or any other daggers with similarly faceted rondels in the neighborhood of 1380-1420 give or a take a few years?


My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 7:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian,

I don't have any reference for other daggers like the A&A model. Here are photos from the MoL showing the hollow and faceted rondels on that piece. They are more like besagews. I love the blade on that dagger. ;-)

Sorry for the links I can't seem to get the images the right size for this forum. These were taken in 2007 so the res isn't that high.

https://plus.google.com/photos/117043795884368813284/albums/6027779915132070545



 Attachment: 107.88 KB
London07 179.jpg

View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Reading list: 5 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 10:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:
Ian,

I don't have any reference for other daggers like the A&A model. Here are photos from the MoL showing the hollow and faceted rondels on that piece. They are more like besagews. I love the blade on that dagger. ;-)

Sorry for the links I can't seem to get the images the right size for this forum. These were taken in 2007 so the res isn't that high.

https://plus.google.com/photos/117043795884368813284/albums/6027779915132070545


Thanks a bunch Kel, that's a lot more than I had to start with! I appreciate it. You don't recall a specific date on that dagger do you?

My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 7:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian,

The MoL catalogue from 1940 names this piece A 1968. Laking apparently dated it mid fifteenth century. I have seen similar grip constructions in art as early as 1420 but the sandwiched plates and especially their shape make them later. I presume you have DL'd the Laking catalogue collection off archive.org so I won't go any further with that.

If I were looking for a dagger to fit into the period you mentioned, it would likely have circular, simple rondels with a riveted scale grip or a spiral grooved wooden grip burned onto the tang. As attractive as the A&A product is, it doesn't seem to suit your intentions.

As it happens my presentation is early 15thC Italian and I haven't found any current offering I like yet either. Good hunting!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,288

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 8:10 am    Post subject: Rondel         Reply with quote

Hi Ian

The original we did this from was a study sketch done many years ago and the fresco was listed on the same sheet. I later went back trying to verify and have not found any to my satisfaction. When we first did this piece (long time ago) it was in the days of notebooks full of sketches and drawings. Research was what books one could find and details cobbled together third hand in a lot of cases. The change to today where the depth and breadth of info available is staggering sometimes is pretty astounding.

I have been meaning to adjust the description on the web page for along time, have a massive amount of stuff to add and adjust at this point. But will try to do that soon.

We could of course do one that fits your time frame based on an original if you like, just let me know.

If/when I get the time I will try to find our original sheets on that one and see if I can track down our source trail to the details originally used.

Sorry I am not of more help.

Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Reading list: 5 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig, thanks for all of the background information. I really love the dagger as is, it's gorgeous, so I was hoping to not replace it. I just wanted to find other examples near that time frame (1380-1415) that exhibit faceted rondels. The MoL example is great, I just wish it had a firm date or there were others to back it up.

Besides, I went and made this nice scabbard for it! Happy



 Attachment: 135.15 KB
13975382537_4a004f1387_c.jpg


My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
View user's profile Send private message
Craig Johnson
Industry Professional



Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 16 pages
Reading list: 20 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,288

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 10:46 am    Post subject: Rondel         Reply with quote

Nice Scabbard! I will see if I can find the info. I fear its buried in a box somewhere. I can also look through some of my files as I have a tendency to collect info like that but sadly its organized in an awful way. Eek!

Best
Craig
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Craig,

Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I would be curious to know the source as well. I've collected most of the works of Altichero available online but there must be more hiding in old books or under appreciated murals.

Ian,

Fine scabbard! May I ask if the upper "cup" is added on or formed from in one piece wth the body? I am working on one at the moment and I haven't decided how it might be constructed.

Thanks guys!

Happy
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
Joined: 01 Jun 2010
Reading list: 5 books

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 301

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Kel Rekuta wrote:

Ian,

Fine scabbard! May I ask if the upper "cup" is added on or formed from in one piece wth the body? I am working on one at the moment and I haven't decided how it might be constructed.

Thanks guys!

Happy


Kel,

Thank you. The scabbard was molded wet and is a single piece of 3/4 oz veg tan leather. It just uses a simple flesh/grain to flesh/grain seam in the back. The design is based on the example toward the back of the MoL Knives and Scabbards book, and the seam construction is supported by the same source.

Here's an album with more photos of the scabbard if you're interested:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/68089438@N05/sets/72157644211408748/

-Ian

My YouTube Channel - Knyght Errant
My Pinterest
"Monsters are dangerous, and just now Kings are dying like flies..."
View user's profile Send private message
J. Nicolaysen




Location: Wyoming
Joined: 03 Feb 2014
Likes: 31 pages

Posts: 684

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 4:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That is actually one of my top five daggers to buy *, I've always liked it. That scabbard is really well done! I wouldn't have picked the color but it is really vibrant and classy. Nice information in this thread; I hadn't actually seen the MoL dagger before.










*Four of the top five are also by A&A, to go with the three I have already Eek!
View user's profile Send private message
Kel Rekuta




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 10 Feb 2004
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 612

PostPosted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 6:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian,

Thanks for sharing your photos of the sheath. You have saved me a couple hours of tinkering tomorrow. ;-)
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Faceted Rondels on a Dagger
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum