Faceted Rondels on a Dagger -- myArmoury.com

Ian S LaSpina · Posted: Sat 21 Jun, 2014 12:38 pm Post subject: Faceted Rondels on a Dagger

I'm in a desperate quest to hunt down documentation for the Arms and Armor Rondel dagger's faceted style rondels in the late 14th / early 15th centuries. The A&A site description says the piece is based on an example in a 1379 fresco by the artist 'Altichino' which I believe is an erroneous spelling of the Italian fresco artist Altichiero da Zevio. No real luck spotting any daggers with enough detail to discern a faceted rondel in his work.

Here's the A&A piece:

There is an extant piece here on the rondel dagger myArmoury feature article dated to the Early 15th from a River Thames find. I can't find any specific information on that dagger other than the photo and caption here on this website. I've had no luck on the Museum of London's website which is where the article here claims it's housed. Does anyone know anything more about that dagger from a scholarly source, or any other daggers with similarly faceted rondels in the neighborhood of 1380-1420 give or a take a few years?

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 7:58 am Post subject:

Ian,

I don't have any reference for other daggers like the A&A model. Here are photos from the MoL showing the hollow and faceted rondels on that piece. They are more like besagews. I love the blade on that dagger. ;-)

Sorry for the links I can't seem to get the images the right size for this forum. These were taken in 2007 so the res isn't that high.

https://plus.google.com/photos/117043795884368813284/albums/6027779915132070545

Ian S LaSpina · Posted: Sun 22 Jun, 2014 10:38 am Post subject:

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 7:15 am Post subject:

Ian,

The MoL catalogue from 1940 names this piece A 1968. Laking apparently dated it mid fifteenth century. I have seen similar grip constructions in art as early as 1420 but the sandwiched plates and especially their shape make them later. I presume you have DL'd the Laking catalogue collection off archive.org so I won't go any further with that.

If I were looking for a dagger to fit into the period you mentioned, it would likely have circular, simple rondels with a riveted scale grip or a spiral grooved wooden grip burned onto the tang. As attractive as the A&A product is, it doesn't seem to suit your intentions.

As it happens my presentation is early 15thC Italian and I haven't found any current offering I like yet either. Good hunting!

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Hi Ian

The original we did this from was a study sketch done many years ago and the fresco was listed on the same sheet. I later went back trying to verify and have not found any to my satisfaction. When we first did this piece (long time ago) it was in the days of notebooks full of sketches and drawings. Research was what books one could find and details cobbled together third hand in a lot of cases. The change to today where the depth and breadth of info available is staggering sometimes is pretty astounding.

I have been meaning to adjust the description on the web page for along time, have a massive amount of stuff to add and adjust at this point. But will try to do that soon.

We could of course do one that fits your time frame based on an original if you like, just let me know.

If/when I get the time I will try to find our original sheets on that one and see if I can track down our source trail to the details originally used.

Sorry I am not of more help.

Craig

Ian S LaSpina · Posted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 9:22 am Post subject:

Craig, thanks for all of the background information. I really love the dagger as is, it's gorgeous, so I was hoping to not replace it. I just wanted to find other examples near that time frame (1380-1415) that exhibit faceted rondels. The MoL example is great, I just wish it had a firm date or there were others to back it up.

Besides, I went and made this nice scabbard for it! Happy

Craig Johnson · Industry Professional

Nice Scabbard! I will see if I can find the info. I fear its buried in a box somewhere. I can also look through some of my files as I have a tendency to collect info like that but sadly its organized in an awful way. Eek!

Best
Craig

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:45 pm Post subject:

Craig,

Thanks for chiming in on this topic. I would be curious to know the source as well. I've collected most of the works of Altichero available online but there must be more hiding in old books or under appreciated murals.

Ian,

Fine scabbard! May I ask if the upper "cup" is added on or formed from in one piece wth the body? I am working on one at the moment and I haven't decided how it might be constructed.

Thanks guys!

Happy

Ian S LaSpina · Posted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 12:51 pm Post subject:

J. Nicolaysen · Posted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 4:59 pm Post subject:

That is actually one of my top five daggers to buy *, I've always liked it. That scabbard is really well done! I wouldn't have picked the color but it is really vibrant and classy. Nice information in this thread; I hadn't actually seen the MoL dagger before.

*Four of the top five are also by A&A, to go with the three I have already Eek!

Kel Rekuta · Posted: Wed 25 Jun, 2014 6:37 pm Post subject:

Ian,

Thanks for sharing your photos of the sheath. You have saved me a couple hours of tinkering tomorrow. ;-)