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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2005 4:58 pm    Post subject: Historic examples of a type Z ?         Reply with quote

Just wondering if anyone had pictures of any surviving type Z Viking swords. I've admired this style in reproduction form including my very own Albion Gotland but can't recall seeing an original.
Gary Grzybek
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2005 5:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Historic examples of a type Z ?         Reply with quote

Gary Grzybek wrote:
Just wondering if anyone had pictures of any surviving type Z Viking swords. I've admired this style in reproduction form including my very own Albion Gotland but can't recall seeing an original.


Hi Gary...

Here are a few Zs of the AE variety...

First a lady's sword--Princess Suontaka. And a twin with what looks to be pattern welded hilt furniture... (If so, the only sword I have seen with such.)

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2005 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are a few pics of the Dyback Sword...

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Thomas McDonald
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2005 6:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Gary

This plate was posted awhile back, from Pierce's book, that shows a Type Z .
This was the inspiration for Steve Han's viking that Vince Evans made!




Best Sword, Las Vegas, 2004 http://lvcks.com/pix137.htm

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=791

Mac

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Gary Grzybek




Location: Stillwater N.J.
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PostPosted: Fri 07 Jan, 2005 5:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks guys! Big Grin


Now I remember some of these but couldn't recall where I saw them.

Gary Grzybek
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 9:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I found this thread after searching for examples of swords of this type, and decided to bring it back up. It appears that there were a number of photos which are no longer viewable, I was hoping for some more pictures if anyone has any, thanks!
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey Justin...

Here are pictures of a fantasic find from Bengtsarvet Haradsarvet Sweden with silver inlay.

ks



 Attachment: 133.36 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden...HMS.jpg
Sword preserved by Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden

 Attachment: 105.24 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden.EngraveSilvInlay.HMS..jpg
Sword preserved by Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden

 Attachment: 53.73 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden.EngraveSilvInlayPj.jpg
Sword preserved by Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden. Photo by Peter Johnsson

 Attachment: 67.01 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden.EngraveSilvInlayPomPj.jpg
Sword preserved by Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden. Photo by Peter Johnsson

 Attachment: 148.71 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden.HMS.jpg
Sword preserved by Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden

 Attachment: 117.85 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden.HMS.,.jpg
Sword preserved by Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities


Last edited by Kirk Lee Spencer on Mon 28 Sep, 2009 11:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Justin King
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Kirk, that is a very nice example and the photos are excellent-very revealing of the true 3-dimensional form of the hilt components, which have much more contour than is sometimes apparent in straight-on photos. The grip on this piece also seems to be remarkably short, unless I am mistaking the proportions of the rest of the hilt. The remaining decoration is wonderful to see, this sword would have been absolutely breathtaking when it was newly made...wow.

The reason for my interest is that I recently managed to aquire an Albion Gotland. The hilt pieces on it are very flat-faced, with little rounding, which is a striking contrast to your example.
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Michael Pikula
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

While we are talking about type Z hilts, does anyone know what the little bronze (?) tabs on the pommel are for, or how they are attached?
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Sun 27 Sep, 2009 5:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As always your photos are beautiful.
The details are very clear.
Thank you, Kirk Happy
Happy
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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maurizio D'Angelo wrote:
As always your photos are beautiful.
The details are very clear.
Thank you, Kirk Happy
Happy



Thanks Maurizio...

However these are not my photos but have been gleaned from my research. I was having trouble getting my computer to link to the website so I did not get the credits in (they are in now). Two of the photos are those of Peter Johnsson and the other, as well, are available because of the good graces of the Historical Museum in Stockholm Sweden in allowing images to be made.
I have noticed that there are many more images from museums becoming available, even very nice websites to showcase these treasures. The new website, showing large high resolution images of the recent Anglo-Saxon find at Stratfordshire has been a tremendous encouragement to me on many levels... quick access to preliminary data and detailed photo archives and the phenomenal quality and quantity of the find. I think that this will increase attendance in meseums as it opens up a wider interest in this amazingly beautiful art.

Because of my computer problems I was not able to download the other Type Z finds...

Here they are.

ks



 Attachment: 92.86 KB
VIK.Z.BM.jpg
Preserved in the British Museum

 Attachment: 140.18 KB
VIK.Z.ClunyMus.jpg
Preserved in the Cluny Museum

 Attachment: 149.02 KB
VIK.Z.DybackSweden.HMS.jpg
Found at Dyback Sweden. Preserved in the Historical Museum Stockholm Sweden.

 Attachment: 72.23 KB
VIK.Z.g74VesilahtiFinland11th.SKH.SVA.jpg
Found at Vesilahti Finland 11th century. Find preserved by Suomen Kansallismuse, Helsinki Finland. Image from "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Peirce. Grip Length given in Peirce as 74mm

 Attachment: 72.96 KB
VIK.Z.L90bl74w45.EngraveBrzeseKujawskiPoland.MAWP.MIMS.jpg
Length 90cm. Blade length 74cm. Blade width 45mm. Found at Engrave Brzese Kujawshi Poland. Preserved by Museum Archeologiczne, Warszawie, Poland. Image from "Marks and Inscriptions on Medieval Swords in Poland" by Marian Glosek

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
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Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Pikula wrote:
While we are talking about type Z hilts, does anyone know what the little bronze (?) tabs on the pommel are for, or how they are attached?


Hi Michael...

I have often wondered about this too. They appear to be little bridges of bronze. possibly they helped keep twisted wires in their place in the grooves.

Other than that, I have no idea.

ks



 Attachment: 142.72 KB
BronzeBridges.jpg


Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Maurizio D'Angelo




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PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 1:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Pikula wrote:
While we are talking about type Z hilts, does anyone know what the little bronze (?) tabs on the pommel are for, or how they are attached?


Hi Michael,
the upper pommel, it seems fixed with 1 rivet. If you enlarge the photo, it seems clear the connection.
As for the little bronze, I agree with Kirk, maybe fix a decoration. They are in line with the groove of pommel.
Is a hypothesis, of course, I think likely. Happy
Best
Mau



 Attachment: 116.58 KB
VIK.Z.BengtsarvetHaradsarvetSweden.EngraveSilvInlayPomPj (2).jpg

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Kirk Lee Spencer




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PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 2:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Justin King wrote:
Thank you, Kirk, that is a very nice example and the photos are excellent-very revealing of the true 3-dimensional form of the hilt components, which have much more contour than is sometimes apparent in straight-on photos. The grip on this piece also seems to be remarkably short, unless I am mistaking the proportions of the rest of the hilt...



Hey Justin...

Yeah, based on the centimeter strip in the photo, it seems the grip is about 75mm. The other grip length I have on a Type Z is 74mm. That would rally cramp the hand if all four fingers were required to fit between the guards. However, if only three fingers were used and the little finger was allowed to rest on the pommel, or if the forefinger hooked around the guard, then I could understand such a short grip.

take care

ks

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
View user's profile Send private message
Kirk Lee Spencer




Location: Texas
Joined: 24 Oct 2003

Spotlight topics: 6
Posts: 820

PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Historic examples of a type Z ?         Reply with quote

Kirk Lee Spencer wrote:


Hi Gary...

Here are a few Zs of the AE variety...

First a lady's sword--Princess Suontaka. And a twin with what looks to be pattern welded hilt furniture... (If so, the only sword I have seen with such.)


In case anyone is interested in these, here are the pictures again...


ks



 Attachment: 91.64 KB
VIK.ZAe.Var.SuontakaPrincessSVA.jpg
Image from "Swords of the Viking Age" by Ian Peirce

 Attachment: 147.13 KB
VIK.Z.Suontaka.VNAS..jpg
Image from "VIKINGS: North Atlantic Saga" ed. William Fitzhugh and Elisabeth Ward

 Attachment: 80.06 KB
VIK.ZAe.Var.PatWeldPomPj.jpg
Image by Peter Johnsson

Two swords
Lit in Edenís flame
One of iron and one of ink
To place within a bloody hand
One of God or one of man
Our souls to one of
Two eternities
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Nathan Gilleland





Joined: 25 Apr 2008

Posts: 199

PostPosted: Mon 28 Sep, 2009 9:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Whoa! Somebody aged a Valkyrja and put it in a museum! Razz Just kidding, but wow. Uncanny resemblance. Maybe a museum line Valkyrja is in order?
It's really cool to see such beautiful examples of swords that were not just functional, but not just art. Craftsmen really were amazing people to make such morbid tools look so graceful and elegant... It always fascinates me.

Seek Honor before Wealth,
Truth before Honor,
God Before all
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Jeff Marlin




Location: Illinois
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What fascinates me is if you look at the decoration on the sword Kirk posted, the one with the little bronze bridges on the pommel, it seems to be from the same workshop as the sword C257 on pg. 96 of Peirce`s Swords of the Viking Age, which is also the one on which the Albion Vinland was based. You have the same kind of spiral and dot motif, but also those little bronze bridges, which as far as I know are unique to C257 and its identical twin in the Museum of Bergens (at the top of plate 3 in Pierce). If anyone knows about other swords with this feature I`d love to know. If I`m right it would also confirm that the types R and Z were being made at the same place and time.
"With love and action shall a man live in memory and in song."

"Farmer, those are hideous weapons!"
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Michael Pikula
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 7:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Jeff, you are very right, the C257 from SoVA looks like it could have been made by similar hands or the same workshop as the example Kirk posted above. The bronze bridges are really something I'd love to know more about since I haven't seen any cases where decoration was held in place aside from the start and stop point at the base. Maybe the wire decoration had to be terminated early to help keep the line or for some other utilitarian purpose?
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Jeff Marlin




Location: Illinois
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PostPosted: Thu 01 Oct, 2009 1:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Who knows? I`m thinking the bronze bits are just more decoration with the additional purpose of securing the wires.
If you look at the top of the pommel shot it seems like the groves for the wire continue over the top of the pommel, past the bridges, so I don`t think the wires ended under them.
I just think its cool to see the same hands at work on hilts of different types.

"With love and action shall a man live in memory and in song."

"Farmer, those are hideous weapons!"
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Jean Le-Palud




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Oct, 2009 1:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Regarding the yellow metal parts this has already been discussed here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=9249&highlight=
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