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Jason Elrod




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PostPosted: Thu 17 Apr, 2014 5:43 pm    Post subject: Kelvingrove Messer?         Reply with quote

Does anyone have any more information on the below sword/messer? Anything that you have would be great.

The pics were taken off of Andrea Carloni Flickr page and it seems to be listed as an arming sword. But it almost looks like a double sided arming sword mounted with a "messer style" hilt. I absolutely love it.

Better pics would be fantastic.



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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jul, 2014 7:17 pm    Post subject: Kelvingrove Messer?         Reply with quote


Information on the Kelvingrove Messer?
I'm afraid I don't have, Jason.
Anybody?

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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jul, 2014 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It doesn't look like an arming sword to me (or a sword, at all), but a pretty standard grossemesser. I like this form of weapon, too.

Terminology... particularly that found in museums... is really frustrating at times.

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Luke Adams




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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jul, 2014 8:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I noticed, in the museum description, it was listed as a curved sword. To my knowledge, all knightly swords are single-handed and double-edged.
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Mark Lewis





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PostPosted: Tue 22 Jul, 2014 8:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I believe this caption refers to a different sword entirely... there is indeed an "arming sword" with a curved blade! See attached pic from Capwell's "The Real Fighting Stuff".


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Nathan Robinson
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jul, 2014 1:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You nailed it, Mike.
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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jul, 2014 3:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mark Lewis wrote:
I believe this caption refers to a different sword entirely... there is indeed an "arming sword" with a curved blade! See attached pic from Capwell's "The Real Fighting Stuff".


The blade on this one looks a bit like accidental warp during heat treating Wink
One of my blades ended with the similar curvature after quenching. Confused

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Mark Lewis





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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jul, 2014 6:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:
The blade on this one looks a bit like accidental warp during heat treating Wink


This seems like the most plausible explanation to me. In a way, this just makes me more curious about this sword's history. If the curve was regarded as an unacceptable manufacturing defect, presumably it would have been scrapped immediately, which clearly didn't happen... did this sword go into the "bargain bin"?
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jul, 2014 9:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"Sabering" is a definite flaw that does happen during heat-treat often enough. Historically if there was no time to re-do the treat, they'd just go ahead and use these blades as they would have been quite functional, just kind of weird shaped. It was that or scrap it, hammer it back into a lump of steel and start over entirely.
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Luke Adams




Location: NYC
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PostPosted: Wed 23 Jul, 2014 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wonder if there are any redeeming factors in using a curved double-edged sword...
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Malcolm A




Location: Scotland, UK
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Jul, 2014 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jason,
I live on the Edinburgh side of Scotland which isn't that far from Glasgow and the Kelvingrove Museum.
The next time I go through I will try to get you better pictures of the grossemesser and its information plate.
With the Commonwealth Games having just started I won't be going that way for a while as the city will be mobbed.
Cheers,
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Jason Elrod




Location: Winchester, VA
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Jul, 2014 2:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Malcolm A wrote:
Jason,
I live on the Edinburgh side of Scotland which isn't that far from Glasgow and the Kelvingrove Museum.
The next time I go through I will try to get you better pictures of the grossemesser and its information plate.
With the Commonwealth Games having just started I won't be going that way for a while as the city will be mobbed.
Cheers,


Thank you Malcolm. I would appreciate any pictures that you can get of this piece.
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Mike Ruhala




Location: Stuart, Florida
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PostPosted: Thu 24 Jul, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luke Adams wrote:
I wonder if there are any redeeming factors in using a curved double-edged sword...


While not as common as straight double edged swords there are curved examples from the Nordic lands, the latest evidence I've seen is from 14th century artwork and there are actual artifacts from centuries earlier. I wouldn't be surprised if there's quite a number of these tucked away in museums somewhere but generally overlooked because they do not match the common perception of what either Viking or knightly swords should look like.

As far as redeeming factors go the convex edge would present more cutting surface at an advantageous angle so it would offer at least a little benefit to the slice. Other than that any offensive or defensive saber technique that plays on the curve of the blade would be equally applicable to a curved fully double edge blade, it's a perfectly valid blade configuration.
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