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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Persian Sword Reply to topic
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Cliff Peiffer




Location: Australia
Joined: 13 Jul 2013

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 1:01 am    Post subject: Persian Sword         Reply with quote

Greetings,

I have an opportunity to purchase what is described as a Persian Blade, antique hand forged c1700.

I would very much appreciate any assistance in authenticating this sword, authenticating its age and possible value.

Look forward to your response and regards

Cliff



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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 1:23 am    Post subject: Re: Persian Sword         Reply with quote

Cliff Peiffer wrote:
Greetings,

I have an opportunity to purchase what is described as a Persian Blade
Cliff, the sword looks like an Indian tulwar, you would need to post better images of the blade to see it it is anything other than an ordinary Indian sword blade, does it come with a scabbard?

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Cliff Peiffer




Location: Australia
Joined: 13 Jul 2013

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 1:59 am    Post subject: Persian Sword         Reply with quote

Thank you for the prompt response, unfortunately, no scabbard and best photos I have for now. What does it mean if it is an Indian Tulwar?
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Mikko Kuusirati




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 4:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically, it just means that it's likely Indian rather than Persian. Different style, different history and place of origin. Functionally all but identical (for what that matters with antiques). Happy

At least based on the photos it doesn't scream modern tourist replica to me, so I'd say tentatively it looks good on a first glance.

The subtle tongue, the sophist guile, they fail when the broadswords sing;
Rush in and die, dogs -- I was a man before I was a king.
-- R. E. Howard, The Road of Kings
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: Persian Sword         Reply with quote

Cliff Peiffer wrote:
Thank you for the prompt response, unfortunately, no scabbard and best photos I have for now. What does it mean if it is an Indian Tulwar?


Cliff, the hilt is certainly not Persian, the blade could be as Indian swords do use blades from other cultures, it would take a closer examination by someone who has some knowledge of Indian and Persian blades to tell. Since it has the hilt of an Indian tulwar it would be considered to be a tulwar by collectors. It does look like an authentic antique.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 8:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Possibly Indian, possibly Afghanistan, It looks like mine that I have bought in Afghanistan. I have owned about 10 of these, I am down to seven now,


David L Smith
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 8:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would also say 1800s rather than 1700s,
David L Smith
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
Joined: 01 Jan 2011

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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's really a lot of old tulwars floating around. Most aren't terribly old either, but there's honestly no way of telling unless they're assessed by a professional or there's a date (that hasn't been added after the fact to give it "authenticity") on it. Really, unless it's coming from a creditable auction site or retailer like Oriental Arms, just consider it "probably antique". Most of these are 1800's or so. The fancier, more decorated ones tend to be older (and more expensive).

For example if you get on Ebay you can find tulwars looking about like yours for as low as $200... even bundles of them.

Best advice? If you like it and can get it for a fair price-- go for it and enjoy Happy
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 11:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lewis Smith wrote:
Possibly Indian, possibly Afghanistan


I was under the impression that one of the defining characteristics of the Afghanistan pulwar was downturned quillons on the hilt.

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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 11:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Eric S wrote:
David Lewis Smith wrote:
Possibly Indian, possibly Afghanistan


I was under the impression that one of the defining characteristics of the Afghanistan pulwar was downturned quillons on the hilt.



not always, I have couple of these too, they are fairly rare in Afghanistan.

You also have to keep in mind that Afghanistan, Pakistan and western India as political regions or States are a fairly new concept, culturally the lines are very blurred

David L Smith
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Jeffrey Faulk




Location: Georgia
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 12:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yeah, given the crossroads that was the general area of Afghanistan/Pakistan/Western India, it would be absolutely no wonder to find plenty of variety in the blades carried there. However, the pulwar is definitely a 'trademark' of warriors from Afghanistan and Pakistan in any number of photos.

Here's one from Wikipedia (guy in lighter coat sitting near the middle, holding it vertically:


Even in this picture, the guy sitting right in the middle has a more traditional shamshir in his lap rather than another pulwar or talwar. You can also see that many of them are wearing (most likely) pesh-kabz knives through their belts. One of those kneeling at the left of the picture has a long sheathed sword or knife; this may be a classic Khyber or charay knife, many of which reached sword proportions.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jeffrey Faulk wrote:
Yeah, given the crossroads that was the general area of Afghanistan/Pakistan/Western India, it would be absolutely no wonder to find plenty of variety in the blades carried there. However, the pulwar is definitely a 'trademark' of warriors from Afghanistan and Pakistan in any number of photos.

Here's one from Wikipedia (guy in lighter coat sitting near the middle, holding it vertically:


Even in this picture, the guy sitting right in the middle has a more traditional shamshir in his lap rather than another pulwar or talwar. You can also see that many of them are wearing (most likely) pesh-kabz knives through their belts. One of those kneeling at the left of the picture has a long sheathed sword or knife; this may be a classic Khyber or charay knife, many of which reached sword proportions.


I have been looking for this photo, I had lost it, Heh,
These my friends are the police department of Kubal or Kandahar Afghanistan early 1900s

David L Smith
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 3:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="David Lewis Smith"]
Eric S wrote:


You also have to keep in mind that Afghanistan, Pakistan and western India as political regions or States are a fairly new concept, culturally the lines are very blurred


Afghanistan is much older than Pakistan which was formed 1947.
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 3:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

[quote="Eric S"]
David Lewis Smith wrote:
Eric S wrote:


You also have to keep in mind that Afghanistan, Pakistan and western India as political regions or States are a fairly new concept, culturally the lines are very blurred


Afghanistan is much older than Pakistan which was formed 1947.


That is exactly my point. I will note this however, only very rarely do any of my friends or acquaintances from the region known as Afghanistan refer to themselves as 'Afghan' They are Pashtun, Tajik, Hazara, Uzbek, Aimak, Turkmen, Baloch, Pashai etc etc. For a time it was an empire ruled from Gazni, I have been in both the castles there and one of the towers.

Much of what Pakistan calls the FATA belongs to Afghanistan in treaty as well, Pakistan or rather the Government in Islamabad will not turn it over.

some of them look like me,
can you find me?
[img]https://scontent-b-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t31/p180x540/737837_10151155173222541_325683405_o.jpg[/img]



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Afghanistan, 2011

David L Smith
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Cliff Peiffer




Location: Australia
Joined: 13 Jul 2013

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 4:24 pm    Post subject: Thankyou all for the responses         Reply with quote

Thankyou everyone for your very informative responses, this is much appreciated. We also have traveled India and have seen many such swords, so it both intrigues and frustrates me when the term "Persian" is so loosely used.

Kindest regards

Cliff
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Nat Lamb




Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: 15 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cliff
I don't want to try and teach anyone to suck eggs, but I notice you are in Australia. I don't know what state you are in, but unless you already have the relevent exemptions, I would check out your state's weapon restriction laws. They vary, but some (such as Vicoria) are extreemly tight, and any sword or sword like object requires an exemption, and a safe place of storage. Some dealers or sellers are not as accross the details as they should be, and can potentially get buyers into trouble.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 13 Mar, 2014 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Thankyou all for the responses         Reply with quote

Cliff Peiffer wrote:
Thankyou everyone for your very informative responses, this is much appreciated. We also have traveled India and have seen many such swords, so it both intrigues and frustrates me when the term "Persian" is so loosely used.

Kindest regards

Cliff

Cliff, perhaps he meant "Indo-Persian", that term would apply.
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Shahril Dzulkifli




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 6:18 am    Post subject: Persian Sword         Reply with quote

The tulwar is often designated as an Indo-Persian sword rather than Persian. When kings ruled Persia the only sword they carry was the shamshir, not the tulwar.
“You have power over your mind - not outside events. Realize this, and you will find strength”

- Marcus Aurelius
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Eric S




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 6:57 am    Post subject: Re: Persian Sword         Reply with quote

Shahril Dzulkifli wrote:
The tulwar is often designated as an Indo-Persian sword rather than Persian. When kings ruled Persia the only sword they carry was the shamshir, not the tulwar.


But Persian made blades were exported to other countries, the seller specifically has it tagged as a "antique handforged Persian blade c 1700" and not a "Persian sword" which is confusing. I would guess that the blade may actually be an old European blade which were used quite often in Indian swords.
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 15 Mar, 2014 2:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It has been my experience that most antique dealers do not know anything about swords, probably just a miss labeling based on a quick google search
David L Smith
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