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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan, 2014 1:34 pm    Post subject: Scabbard lacing         Reply with quote

Anyone have a pattern/instructions for the backwards "Z" lacing pattern shown below?

It's a bit different than the "X lacing pattern shown on these instructions:
www.yeoldegaffers.com/projects/scabbard/instructions.jpg

Thanks

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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan, 2014 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The backwards Z is seen alot in 12th-13th C minis. I've always assumed that is the artistic representation of the suspension method found on the Sword of King Sancho of Castille or atleast something close.


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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan, 2014 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is also the St. Maurice of Turin.



But no one has a good shot of the backside that I know of, except Peter J, and he hasn't revealed what he has.

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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks

My concern was that the diagonal of the "Z" was not tacked down in front, as it is with the "X" lacing pattern. It could, therefore, lift away from the scabbard.

In the 1st photo posted by Robin the diagonal appears to be sewn at the top and bottom, which would prevent it from pulling away from the scabbard.

In the 2nd photo it looks like the strap goes around twice to secure the diagonal.

Robin Smith wrote:
But no one has a good shot of the backside that I know of, except Peter J, and he hasn't revealed what he has.

ARGGGG! That's exactly what I wanted to see! That's where I'm having problems coming up with my own pattern.

In the image that I posted at the top, the backwards "Z" looks like a variation of the "X" in that the tails eventually come back around to the front and tie off below the "Z."
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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan, 2014 4:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's what I was considering. It's like the "X" pattern except the yellow tail is not taken across the front to cross ("X") over the blue strap, but instead it's taken down below the the sewn belt and tied in front (like the "X" pattern).

Comments?



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Z Lacing.jpg

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Lloyd Winter




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PostPosted: Tue 14 Jan, 2014 8:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've done a couple of sword belts in the "King Sancho" style.

My version is a simple friction fit one piece frog with the belt straps sewn to the loops, which works really well on tapered blades. I've never tried this with a type X - XIII blade, although I'm contemplating a sword belt for my steward so who knows what the future holds.

I've attached a couple of pics of the belt I did for my yeoman, including the paper pattern and one failed attempt where the diagonal on the z was way too long.
I found that the secret in making sure the diagonal doesn't buckle or lift away from the scabbard is to make sure the bottom loop is as far up the scabbard as it can possibly go. If it has room to slip further up the scabbard when you are wearing the sword the diagonal strap will buckle. I had to do 3 versions to get it right, but it takes a fairly small piece of leather and less than an hour to produce so it's not that big an effort to tweak the pattern several times. I also found this is a lot easier to do with a wider belt, the pics show a 1 3/8 belt strap, I was never able to get one I liked with a 1" strap.

hope this helps.

[img]

[/img]
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Bryan Heff




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lloyd -

That is good work, I really like that style. Very nicely done.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 5:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry Marinakis wrote:
Here's what I was considering. It's like the "X" pattern except the yellow tail is not taken across the front to cross ("X") over the blue strap, but instead it's taken down below the the sewn belt and tied in front (like the "X" pattern).

Comments?

I think this could work just fine. One important point about the small thongs though... Where they cross and pass beneath the bottom belt they will also need to pass under the scabbard leather. This is the same way its done on the X-laced scabbards, and it is important for holding the bottom belt in place and keeping it from sliding upwards.

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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Wed 15 Jan, 2014 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This one mimics Lloyd's method.



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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan, 2014 1:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The earliest depictions of the Z-loop system I've seen is the biography of Ivar the boneless,, he lived in the late 700s- to late 800s (long life indeed for a crippled viking). The biography may have been written and illustrated some time after that, maybe another 100 years. I'll see if I can find it. But it was in use at least until the burial of Scancho IV 1295.

The photos of the scabbard loops above are just gorgeous! Of course, I've made a couple myself but these really capture the essence of the Sancho IV scabbard loop system using intricate tooling. Harrys idea about the St Maurice seems solid too, an obvious and logical hybrid of the Z and X-system.

About the loop slipping, I had no issues with that as the type X scabbards I made still tapered on all sides and I made the loop tight enough to accomodate some stretching and then presed it in place.
Patricks example above with the underlying band (or carving in the Wood itself, but more likely a leather band) would make it even more secure of course and from what I can see in the photos the Sancho IV sword has one.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Foong Chen Hong




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PostPosted: Sun 19 Jan, 2014 2:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is something new to me, but that scabbard definite look amazing.
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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Mon 20 Jan, 2014 1:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Completed lacing:
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Bryan Heff




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PostPosted: Tue 18 Mar, 2014 8:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry -

That looks great. I must have missed your last post since it was more than a month ago. I think the lacing turned out really nice.

How do you find the diagonal piece that connects the upper and lower part of the backwards 'Z'? It appears to be sort of floating on top of the scabbard leather, does it want to pull away or does it stay right there nicely.

Thanks!

The church is near but the roads are icy. The tavern is far but I will walk carefully. - Russian Proverb
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Maciej K.
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PostPosted: Tue 25 Mar, 2014 5:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Harry - can you show the back side of scabbard?
Looks very good.

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Harry Marinakis




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Apr, 2014 1:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The stitching on the backside is not very good, sorry.

In regards to the straps that cross on the backside - they also go through the dark brown scabbard cover to help prevent the belt from sliding up the scabbard.

The diagonal strap is floating, it does pull away slightly but the wrap around the upper strap at the bifurcation holds it in place.



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