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Jason McEntee




Location: Northern California
Joined: 19 Jul 2013

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 11:19 am    Post subject: What Do I have?         Reply with quote

Last year my father-in-law gave me what apears to be an antique sword of some kind...but I have no idea what it is. Some folks on SBG said perhaps a Persian Quadara or a variation of a Russian Kindjal, but I've not been able to confirm this. Has anyone here seen one of these before? I'm very curious about the history of this type of blade. Thanks for looking...



"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Jason McEntee




Location: Northern California
Joined: 19 Jul 2013

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple more pics...



"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
Joined: 22 Nov 2009
Reading list: 8 books

Posts: 803

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 4:11 pm    Post subject: Re: What Do I have?         Reply with quote

Jason McEntee wrote:
Last year my father-in-law gave me what apears to be an antique sword of some kind...but I have no idea what it is. Some folks on SBG said perhaps a Persian Quadara or a variation of a Russian Kindjal, but I've not been able to confirm this. Has anyone here seen one of these before? I'm very curious about the history of this type of blade. Thanks for looking...

I believe the correct term is "bebut" (curved kindjal), most probably Russian.

https://www.google.com/search?q=bebut+sword&safe=off&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS460US460&espv=210&es_sm=122&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ievNUt6BB6by2QXlh4GwDA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1526&bih=814
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Jeroen T




Location: Holland
Joined: 23 Oct 2013

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Wed 08 Jan, 2014 10:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I too believe it's a kindjal.
I haven't seem one with such a blade but i like it very much, great find.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
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Posts: 484

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 7:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have one of these in my collection, it is a very good find on your father in laws part. It is not so much 'Russian' as it is from the Caucasus and Black Sea area
David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Jason McEntee




Location: Northern California
Joined: 19 Jul 2013

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lewis Smith wrote:
I have one of these in my collection, it is a very good find on your father in laws part. It is not so much 'Russian' as it is from the Caucasus and Black Sea area

Interesting, thanks. I can't find much info on these...one site said they were carried by Cossacks? If I was to guess, I'd say 19th to perhaps early 20th century? What do you know about yours David, and how did you come across it?

"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Norman McCormick





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 117

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 12:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,
Net search for Quadara/Quaddara will give you info re this type of weapon. Hope this is of help.
Regards,
Norman.
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 1,494

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 3:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quaddara (with variation in the spelling) is the Persian/Iranian name.

Bebut is, AFAIK, the Azeri name. They're quite common in Azerbaijan (or, at least, used to be).

In Russian, they are usually called kindjal (which is also used for the straight double-edged blades).

So, perhaps, if you want to know the "proper name", it is necessary to know the region of origin.

There might be naming differences for the curved double-edged blades and the curved single-edged blades (single-edged, neglecting a short back edge). The Russian military ones are double-edged (unless I'm confused by bad replicas), which are often called "bebut" to distinguish them from Russian military straight kindjals.

Some further discussion of these, and similar, swords:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...e-of-Sword
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...nd-kindjal
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2528
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?p=58614

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 484

PostPosted: Thu 09 Jan, 2014 6:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Go with what Manoucher says as far as names. He really is the expert.

I will try to take some photos of mine to post, work depending. I cannot tell you much about mine. Unlike the bulk of my collection that was bought in the middle east this one was bought at a gun show in Fayetteville North Carolina.

David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Jason McEntee




Location: Northern California
Joined: 19 Jul 2013

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Fri 10 Jan, 2014 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timo, thanks for the links. I'll check'em out when I'm off work.

@ David, I look forward to seeing pics of yours. Happy

"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Jason McEntee




Location: Northern California
Joined: 19 Jul 2013

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 12:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The other day my Father-in-law asked me to bring the piece to his house so he could look it over. He said he new some key things to look for to see if it is authentic. When I handed it to him, he immediately looked at the back of the scabbard's chape. After a few seconds, he said, "reproduction."

He pointed out a solder joining the chape together, and said if it was an actual antique it would not be soldered. Was his assessment correct? See below...


"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Norman McCormick





Joined: 17 Jan 2007

Posts: 117

PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

From what I can see on the photographs, NO.
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Chris Goshey




Location: Fairfax, Virginia
Joined: 01 Feb 2014

Posts: 9

PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 2:35 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I agree with Norman, soldering has existed since at least 3000 BC and would have been available to an inhabitant of the Caucasus mountains in the 18th-20th centuries.

One correction I might make in terms of its name, a better pronunciation/transliteration of the Russian term is "kinzhal" as it is spelled кинжал in Russian and the ж character is pronounced "zh." According to my girlfriend, who is a native Russian speaker, the word means any dagger not just ones from the Caucasus.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
Joined: 10 Nov 2009

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Posts: 793

PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 2:50 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If that's a reproduction it's the kind I'd like to own. Wink
Very handsome blade.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Jason McEntee




Location: Northern California
Joined: 19 Jul 2013

Posts: 22

PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 4:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Good news indeed, thank you gentlemen! Happy
"You see, a sword is three feet of tempered steel---with death dancing on every inch, and hanging like a dark star on the very point."
--Ronald Lacey, as Oswald, from Sword Of The Valiant, 1984
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 09 Feb, 2014 6:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Soldering is an old technology, perhaps 6000 years old already. So soldering (and brazing) don't mean "modern". (The particular solder alloy might.) Also, the reproductions I've seen haven't had solder seams like that.

It's probably a repair (and could be a modern repair). Scabbards get recovered, replaced, etc., and sometimes the old scabbard fittings suffer in the process. The suspension ring mount is a different metal from the rest of the scabbard mounts? Could be mix-and-match scabbard parts.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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L. Smith




Location: central america
Joined: 17 Dec 2016

Posts: 1

PostPosted: Sat 17 Dec, 2016 4:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Russian Imperial issue Model of 1907 issued to artillery and machine gun crews. One of the last attempts to use swords as combat weapons. When the Bolsheviks took over they discontinued it as military issue.

Originals have proof marks on blade and scabbard.
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Timo Nieminen




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 08 May 2009
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PostPosted: Sun 18 Dec, 2016 3:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The 1907 bebut is different. Double-edged diamond section blade with narrow fullers next to the central ridge, different hilt, different scabbard. An example, from http://www.sailorinsaddle.com/product.aspx?id=832

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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