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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 9:45 am    Post subject: Wants to create a Athenian Hoplite kit         Reply with quote

Hello all,

Recently I've been putting together ideas for creating an Hoplite kit, but would like to create one in the style of a Athenian nobleman. I'm familiar with the armor, but I am lost when it comes to the rest of the kit Worried

From what little research I can find, it seems the Athenians wore blue, rather then red, like the Spartans.I know Spartans were famed for wearing red cloaks, so that they would hide if they were to be bleeding.

So, what could I do to give the appearance of an Athenian nobleman? Below are a few images of what I have found that I like so far.


Also, if anyone knows of craftsman that work in bronze and could post some links, that would be awesome Cool I've spent a good deal online and I can't find a single craftsman that makes the armor or weapons.

Thanks in advance!
-Reece



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Michal Plezia
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Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 9:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Maybe Jeffrey Hildebrandt? He makes outstanding bronze armour.

Check this thread:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=28063

Weapons made by Neil Burridge have good opinion on the internet.
http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/intro.htm

www.elchon.com

Polish Guild of Knifemakers

The sword is a weapon for killing, the art of the sword is the art of killing. No matter what fancy words you use or what titles you put to
it that is the only truth.
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Jeffrey Hildebrandt
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:
Maybe Jeffrey Hildebrandt? He makes outstanding bronze armour.


Thanks, Michal! Another domestic (Canadian) armourer working in bronze is Matt Lukes of Fabrica Romanorum. Further afield are Craig Sitch of Manning Imperial in Australia, and Noricum Replikate in Germany.

Reece, you might want to check out Matthew Amt's Greek Hoplite Page, and the Greek reenactment boards on the Forum for Ancient Reenacting and Roman Army Talk.

Sounds like a fun kit! Don't forget essential personal equipment to show your dedication to athletics and the arts, like strigil and aryballos for cleaning, a kylix and maybe even a musical instrument.

-Hildebrandt

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David Lewis Smith




Location: NC
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 2:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Run, dont walk Run to thearmourarchive.org

its like this one only for armour. Mostly the SCA crowd but good armourers none the less

David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 3:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michal Plezia wrote:
Weapons made by Neil Burridge have good opinion on the internet.
http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/intro.htm

Neil Burridge makes exceptional bronze weapons but Greek hoplites didn't use them.


Last edited by Dan Howard on Sat 24 Aug, 2013 3:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 3:38 pm    Post subject: Wants to create a Athenian Hoplite kit         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Michal Plezia wrote:
Weapons made by Neil Burridge have good opinion on the internet.
http://www.bronze-age-swords.com/intro.htm

Except that Greek hoplites didn't use bronze weapons.


What were they using? Iron?

-Reece
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 3:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Classical Greece is about five hundred years after the end of the Bronze Age.

Edit: Jeffrey's already given you the link to Matt's hoplite page. Start there.
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 8:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ack, I'm still working on updates!! Well, it's a decent start anyway, thanks for the plugs, guys.

You can hardly go wrong with the armorers mentioned. There is some Greek kit being mass-produced in India (Deepeeka, Daniyal, etc.), but that varies quite a bit in quality so I'm not sure what level you're looking for, here.

I hadn't heard about Athenians wearing blue before! The only color related to a specific city is the Spartans and their red (though apparently there is some debate about whether it was the cloak that was red, or the tunic, or clothing in general...). I've always been a bit skeptical about the idea of Spartans (of all people!) being dismayed by the sight of blood. In any case, you should have a wide range of colors from which to choose.

My page has links to hoplite groups as well as the FAR board and other information. But even if there aren't any other hoplites in your general area, keep at it! It's a very worthy era, as well as challenging.

Khaire!

Matthew

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Sat 24 Aug, 2013 9:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Actually i think i remember reading that the Athenians at Salamis were 'flying flags of blue and white' i think it was in the oxford history of ancient Greece.
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Aug, 2013 5:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:


I've always been a bit skeptical about the idea of Spartans (of all people!) being dismayed by the sight of blood. In any case, you should have a wide range of colors from which to choose.

Khaire!

Matthew

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/


I don't think it was because Spartans themselves didn't want to see blood, it was so that they would appear unharmed to the enemy. It's a disadvantage if your enemy can see that you are wounded and where.
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Aug, 2013 6:58 am    Post subject: Hopelite kit         Reply with quote

I probably should have mentioned that I intend to train with this in the art of Pankration. So, it's needs to be historically correct for me and fit well. So the quality should be good.

I've looked through several venders and the only thing I saw that looked decent was Danyel Steel's corinthian helm (the one I posted above). The rest of the stuff I've found was off and was done in brass :/

I'd like to get it all done in Bronze if I could.

-Reece
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Aug, 2013 9:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pankration was done unarmored, though, wasn't it? Like boxing. A historically accurate helmet will be wrecked after a couple bouts! It's only meant to fend off the spears that get past your shield. (And LOOK good, of course!)

Matthew
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
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PostPosted: Sun 25 Aug, 2013 9:57 am    Post subject: Hoplite kit         Reply with quote

Primarily yes, but I want to study how they had fought on the battlefield. There are several techniques, like kicks that help against shields, etc. It's an all encompassing martial art and is used in conjunction with wrestling.

We have images that show most of the techniques through competitions, like the Olympic games. From what I understand of it, the people who couldn't afford the armour or weapons, used those techniques on the battlefield. Im no expert in it, as it's a revival martial art, just like HEMA, so no one really has the complete answers. A lot of it will be trying out the said techniques and do comparative tests Cool Which will be fun for me lol.

-Reece



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Matthew Amt




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PostPosted: Sun 25 Aug, 2013 11:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sure, you can probably find references to unarmed combat moves done on the battlefield, though I suspect mostly in desperate situations like Thermopylae, but generally battles were fought with spears and shields. Men who were too poor to afford the minimum equipment were either issued kit by the state, or did not fight as hoplites. They could have been javelin-throwers or slingers or rock-chuckers, or rowers. But every city had a large number of men who simply were not eligible for military duty, either because of poverty or social status.

There is a relatively new book out on spear use and other hoplite combat details, called "A Storm of Spears" by Christopher Matthew. Well worth a read!

Matthew
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Sun 25 Aug, 2013 9:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Reece,
I'm also working up a hoplite kit, though only planning to use off-the-shelf purchases to do it. So far, I've just gotten a helmet and sword, both of which need a little work. Here are my notes thus far; hope they're of some help. The museum photos might be of interest. http://www.forensicfashion.com/BC490GreekHoplite.html

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Aug, 2013 1:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lots of problems with the info on that site.

Seventy pounds is too high. Hoplites in bronze armour bore closer to 40 pounds in combat and significantly less when marching.

Hoplon means "gear" or "tool", not "armour". In a martial context it refers to the "tools of war" - weapons, shield, and armour - i.e. the entire panoply. The closest English translation would be something like "arms".

The Greeks usually called their shield an aspis, not a hoplon. I would dispute Snodgrass's claim that they were larger than earlier Greek shields.

This is bollocks: "The helmet ... was not expected to ward off all blows: strength was sacrificed for lightness and reasonable all-over protection". The plate on Greek helmets combined with the padding underneath was perfectly capable of stopping all but the heaviest direct hits.

I would dispute this: " the most successful sword design of the Ancient World was developed by the Greeks." Personally I think that the Naue II was the most successful sword design of the ancient world. The Naue II was certainly the most widespread and longest lasting. It was not developed in Greece; northern Italy is the most likely place of origin.

There is nothing to suggest that Greek armour was ever covered with leather or linen to prevent rusting. The only "composite construction" was the addition of metal scales to a cloth or leather foundation. Greek armour consisted of bronze or occasionally iron plate, bronze or iron scale, leather or rawhide, or layered linen (quilted, not glued)
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Mon 26 Aug, 2013 8:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your feedback Dan. Can you furnish me with some alternate sources so that I can incorporate them? I'm simply collating notes with these pages, and only making notations for errors when the weight of evidence becomes clear to me (as I did with Weapon 2006 p42, which contradicts the others quotes in the "Nudity" section).

As you've often heard me say, I prefer to make decisions based on evidence than by following acknowledged "experts," and virtually all of the quoted authors have been considered "experts" on arms and armor. The best way to do that is to get all the competing viewpoints together and let them fight it out, so to speak, without interference.

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
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PostPosted: Mon 26 Aug, 2013 9:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote:
As you've often heard me say, I prefer to make decisions based on evidence than by following acknowledged "experts," and virtually all of the quoted authors have been considered "experts" on arms and armor. The best way to do that is to get all the competing viewpoints together and let them fight it out, so to speak, without interference.


But outdated ideas such as 70 pound panoplies have been shown to be ridiculous--wouldn't it be much better just to omit them? The longer we keep mentioning misconceptions, the longer they'll be misconceptions! It can certainly be hard to find good sources! Sometimes we just have to pull the reliable bits from the older books and supplement them with newer articles or snippets as we run across them.

I updated my Greek Weapons page last night, having finished my new scabbard at last!

http://www.larp.com/hoplite/greekweapons.html

Khairete,

Matthew
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Ruel A. Macaraeg





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PostPosted: Mon 26 Aug, 2013 10:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
But outdated ideas such as 70 pound panoplies have been shown to be ridiculous--wouldn't it be much better just to omit them?

Hi Matthew,
I'd be happy to incorporate contrary evidence if you have it -- I'd appreciate if you could point me to some alternate sources. As it is, I choose to keep such quotes in for now because:

* In this case, at least, the quote comes from the Museum of Fine Arts' current (I photographed that label in 2011) display gallery of classical art and arms. While I share your skepticism of a 70lb panoply, I'm hesitant to dismiss it outright without solid contrary evidence in a quotable source. One hopes, at least, that the staff of a museum of the MFA's prestige includes curators who did their own research before writing such a label. I don't do primary research myself, so I rely on those who do, and on my own critical thinking to make judgments about whose arguments are most convincing.

* It's a succinct, paragraph-length summary of the subject, which is what I want under each heading in my organizational scheme. It's surprisingly tough to get a short contextual description of Greek hoplites -- despite so much being written about them -- so I've taken the few I've come across so far. Weapon 2006 and Withers 2010 aren't the most rigorous of works either, but as you said, good sources are hard to find!

http://ForensicFashion.com/CostumeStudies.html
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Sean Manning




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PostPosted: Mon 26 Aug, 2013 11:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ruel A. Macaraeg wrote:
Thanks for your feedback Dan. Can you furnish me with some alternate sources so that I can incorporate them? I'm simply collating notes with these pages, and only making notations for errors when the weight of evidence becomes clear to me (as I did with Weapon 2006 p42, which contradicts the others quotes in the "Nudity" section).

As you've often heard me say, I prefer to make decisions based on evidence than by following acknowledged "experts," and virtually all of the quoted authors have been considered "experts" on arms and armor. The best way to do that is to get all the competing viewpoints together and let them fight it out, so to speak, without interference.

See J.F. Lazenby and David Whitehead, “The Myth of the Hoplite's Hoplon,” Classical Quarterly 46.1 (1996). My study of Greek shield jargon in historians of the fourth century BCE has not yet been published but agrees with their findings.

John Lee's A Greek Army on the March has some useful figures for the weight of kit. There is a Herman Historica auction where the auctioneers weighed their helmets and posted the figures in the online catalogue. The article on Marathon in M. Trundle and G. Fagan eds., New Perspectives on Ancient Warfare (Leiden: Brill, 2010) has some reasonable figures. I think that very heavy figures often come from Victor Davis Hansen's The Western Way of War and Victor Davis Hansen ed., Hoplites: the Classical Greek Battle Experience but you can judge their evidence yourself ...
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