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Ed Schelzel





Joined: 22 Jun 2008

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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 2:25 pm    Post subject: falchion?         Reply with quote

Rather than veer the "mail aginst weapons" thread back onto falchions, I thought I'd better just put this here. In the Maciejowski Bible I see what appear to be falchions, but I've not seen modern replication equivalents with inverted crescent tops, etc. (but I really haven't looked that hard either).

These are falchions, right?



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Maciejowski 06d.jpg


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Maciejowski 04.jpg
Is that a falchion next to a "stridslie"? (to the right)

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Maciejowski 03.jpg


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Maciejowski 02.jpg


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Maciejowski 01.jpg
obviously the one on the right.
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Ed Schelzel





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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 2:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok while I'm at it... what is this weapon? It looks like an oversized peasant 'hauswehre".


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Maciejowski 05.jpg

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Matt Corbin




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 2:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There's a few modern replicas out there:

http://kultofathena.com/s_results.asp?search=...mit=Search

“This was the age of heroes, some legendary, some historical . . . the misty borderland of history where fact and legend mingle.”
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Matt Lentzner




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 2:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The large two handed knife has been referred to as a "warbrand". The weapon with the scalloped tip has been referred to as a "godenak" or simply a "chopper".

I don't see how these weapons would be functionally any different than a falchion or messer of equal size.
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 2:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Some people do refer to them as early falchions, but I think most people affectionately know that weapon as a 'maciejowski chopper.' You can see one put to good use in the movie Ironclad.

As far as the giant glaive type weapon, a friend of mine had a reproduction of that made. He says for it's shear size, it surprisingly handles much like a sword. Here's his reproduction 'chopper' and 'glaive' with an Albion Knight in the middle for scale. As fearsome as that weapon appears, I don't think it will cleave mailled knights in twain though, although that would be impressive! Happy


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James Moore





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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 4:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

(I've mentioned this guy before, so I fear I'll sound like some sort of fanboy/groupie if I ever have to mention his name again!)

I know that J.G. Elmslie is working on academic research on the subject of falchions, with intentions for a book, or paper somewhere like The Park Lane Arms Fair Catalogue, and is meant to be giving a presentation on the subject next week at a HEMA/WMA event in York, (The original one, in Yorkshire) called "Fechtschule York", with some kind of typology being proposed to the academic community.

( https://www.facebook.com/events/680353385324026 is the event page, if that's ok to link. )

From what I've heard him say on the subject, he's had discussions on the maciejowski chopper/cleaver/falchion/gondenak/things with the likes of Peter Johnsson, and has a pretty convincing argument that they're not falchions, but messer - in discussion, he used the term "proto-messer" to describe those, and the earlier examples he'd identified in the research. Hopefully we'll get copies of the study online afterwards.
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Ed Schelzel





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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey thanks all, very illuminating!
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Marc Ritz




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 10:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

the 'chopper' looks strangely familiar

Would they be handled the same?
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Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 11:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:
Some people do refer to them as early falchions, but I think most people affectionately know that weapon as a 'maciejowski chopper.' You can see one put to good use in the movie Ironclad.

As far as the giant glaive type weapon, a friend of mine had a reproduction of that made. He says for it's shear size, it surprisingly handles much like a sword. Here's his reproduction 'chopper' and 'glaive' with an Albion Knight in the middle for scale. As fearsome as that weapon appears, I don't think it will cleave mailled knights in twain though, although that would be impressive! Happy



Thats the best looking glaive recreation I have seen. Who made that?

Nice Albion knight too, I love that sword although I don't own it, I have the Vigil which is my favorite knightly sword.
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Christopher B Lellis




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 11:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As far as I know, the only reference to that glaive is that picture from the maciejowski bible. To my knowledge no actual weapon like that has been discovered. Doesn't mean it didn't exist though.

Falchions were common in Europe during the medieval ages, they seem to have been the poor mans sword, more like an axe that looks like a sword from what I hear.
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Corey Skriletz




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PostPosted: Fri 02 Aug, 2013 11:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I had heard that the 'chopper', has also been speculated to be mace or club of some sort. However, I haven't heard that speculation in a while, so I don't know if that theory has been discarded or if it never really had any support at all.
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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Aug, 2013 5:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Ian S LaSpina wrote:
Some people do refer to them as early falchions, but I think most people affectionately know that weapon as a 'maciejowski chopper.' You can see one put to good use in the movie Ironclad.

As far as the giant glaive type weapon, a friend of mine had a reproduction of that made. He says for it's shear size, it surprisingly handles much like a sword. Here's his reproduction 'chopper' and 'glaive' with an Albion Knight in the middle for scale. As fearsome as that weapon appears, I don't think it will cleave mailled knights in twain though, although that would be impressive! Happy



Thats the best looking glaive recreation I have seen. Who made that?

Nice Albion knight too, I love that sword although I don't own it, I have the Vigil which is my favorite knightly sword.


Christopher,

That glaive reproduction was a custom piece by Arms and Armor. I'm trying to direct the owner of that piece to this thread so he can give some more details on it's handling and performance.

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Mart Shearer




Location: Jackson, MS, USA
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Aug, 2013 8:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A few other 13th century miniatures of note:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4266/8414/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4682/12384/

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4441/13157/


David Nicolle cites a number of contemporary terms which might describe the two-handed versions mounted on short hafts, such as fauchard, faussart, or fauchon. The application of "godenak" or similar spellings of goedentag are almost certainly mis-attributed to any bladed weapon.

The square-tipped single-handed form is similar in shape to the 13th century table knife, but I don't know if that fact alone should make it a messer rather than a falchion. Some have umbrella handles, while others have typical cruciform guards and pommels.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Sat 03 Aug, 2013 9:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

see these existing threads for discussion/pics:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=11401
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=20775
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=927

Happy

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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Sat 03 Aug, 2013 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These always remind me of cane knives. Basicly machetes for harvesting cane
David L Smith
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Ed Toton




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Aug, 2013 8:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:
Christopher B Lellis wrote:
Ian S LaSpina wrote:




Thats the best looking glaive recreation I have seen. Who made that?

Nice Albion knight too, I love that sword although I don't own it, I have the Vigil which is my favorite knightly sword.


Christopher,

That glaive reproduction was a custom piece by Arms and Armor. I'm trying to direct the owner of that piece to this thread so he can give some more details on it's handling and performance.


Sorry for my late arrival to the thread. Yes, the "glaive" was a custom piece from A&A. It's about 4.5 feet in length, weighs just about 5 pounds, and yet handles like a 48-inch, 4 lb sword, due to the added leverage of the 18-inch grip. It's a beast, but it handles remarkably well for the size and weight. I sent them this image to base it on:



At the top of the previous photo is a Del Tin version of the Mac-bible "choppers". The Albion Knight is shown for scale. Happy

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Bennison N




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PostPosted: Thu 15 Aug, 2013 7:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Those Maciejowski Bible "Choppers" are the number one most popular weapon in Historical Medieval Battle and the Battle of the Nations.

I'd say 80% of people use those as their sidearm there.

"Never give a sword to a man who can't dance" - Confucius

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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Aug, 2013 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

this is not my period of interest, so it has only now occurred to me that the "glaive" bears more than a passing resemblance to later kriegsmessers. Imagine a long cross with nagel on that thing. I'm not suggesting direct lineage, though, because I don't think I've seen any kriegsmessers in the interim period.
-Sean

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Matt Lentzner




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PostPosted: Fri 16 Aug, 2013 12:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm thinking the glaive/warbrand is part of a larger family of weapon types (two-handed single-edge cutting blades) that goes back to ancient times.

falx -> rhomphaia -> glaive/warbrand -> kriegsmesser
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Josh S





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PostPosted: Fri 16 Aug, 2013 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Pikula also made a prototype of the long-bladed "glaive/warbrand/oversized hauswehre" weapon. Apparently he intends to eventually make it in production runs. The prototype version is pretty different from what's in the manuscript, although still completely recognizable as such. I could have sworn there were some posts here on myArmoury about it, but I couldn't find them. It is on his Facebook page, though: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.399830930103240.96153.271965196223148&type=1
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