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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 8:32 am    Post subject: What is this blade?         Reply with quote

I've lately seen some photos taken by Niels Provos of some extraordinary swords and other items from the Reichsstadt Museum in Germany. Many items that seem atypical to me of the little I know of Viking age/Migration swords and arms.

But what is the very wide sword at the bottom of this picture? Seems like a Chinese broadsword??


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Last edited by Scott Roush on Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:57 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Looks like a Katzbalger to me. Would be more consistent with the things on display in Rothenburg, than a chinese sword. ;o)
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:27 am    Post subject: Not very helpful on my part         Reply with quote

But it is Very Nice, hhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Are you thinking along this line for the project we are talking about?

Dave

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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 9:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thomas... I'm not familiar with that sword at all. I've been working on a Chinese broadsword lately and this looks almost exactly like it except for the fact that it's iron.

As to being in that museum.. I've only heard that it originally comes from somebody's private collection and have no idea how the things are organized or categorized.

But this is why I posted... to find out. :-)

David.. I'm not sure. I have to find out more about this thing. Like I said.. New to me! At least in a Western context. Feel free to send me an email with whatever you have on it...

edit: well.. having looked into a katzbalger.. I guess it seems possible. But still out of place with other things in that particular display box.

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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are you sure it's the Reichsstadt Museum at Rothenburg? I'll have a look in my photo archive, if I've taken a picture of it.

edit: Haven't found a pic of this particular blade, sorry.

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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

hmmm.. Interesting. Because Niels couldn't find it in his catalog of Reichstaadt either...

Will look into it.

Thanks for looking...

edit: oops.. you meant your own photo archive...

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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why not a migration period or even Celtic blade? A lot of those had wonderful double fullers...
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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

wait... couldn't this just be a double fullered iron gladius???

And what is that little leathery rain guardy looking thing at the tang/blade junction?

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Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

... I had a picture for awhile of a pair of Chinese swords in a museum display, and
one of the pair DID have a double fuller, and might have been made of iron. Without
immediate research, I don't think it would be a hazardous guess to suggest that
Chinese swords of that type would sooner or later transition from bronze to iron ...

I did find this picture though, and I believe the swords are of bronze ... though they
look " iron-ish " ....


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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 10:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think that might be bronze or brass used to reinforce the junction between the tang and the blade if they are welded together after they broke maybe. Or it was used to shim the empty space between the guard and the blade... I don't think it's leather.
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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 11:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka.. we must have posted at the same time as I didn't see the post where you mentioned celtic and migration.

I suppose it's possible.. but other than the gladius.. I haven't see ones so short and fat... but again.. I'm still learning about this time period.

Matthiew... your picture is why I mentioned Chinese. It looks just like that doesn't it? But it WOULD be odd in what I've seen of this particular collection so far. Thanks for posting that lovely picture... nice inspiration for my Chinese diversion... :-)

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Joel Chesser




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 11:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Are we sure it is short and fat? it seems to be missing a lot of material, is it possible the blade extended further than it currently does?
..." The person who dosen't have a sword should sell his coat and buy one."

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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 1:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Roush wrote:
Matthiew... your picture is why I mentioned Chinese. It looks just like that doesn't it? But it WOULD be odd in what I've seen of this particular collection so far. Thanks for posting that lovely picture... nice inspiration for my Chinese diversion... :-)
Wouldn't be the first time an Eastern object of unknown provenance has been misidentified as a Western artifact
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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 2:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Joel.. I'm not sure. It could be that it broke or corroded through in a way to appear to have a tip. That is certainly possible. If that is true then it could just be a double fullered Migration sword then...
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: What is this blade?         Reply with quote

Scott Roush wrote:
But what is the very wide sword at the bottom of this picture? Seems like a Chinese broadsword??


Is it actually very wide? It's the length of a spearhead, which, depending on the spearhead, might just mean it's very short. Which would make the blade next to it very narrow, and thus the one to ask questions about.

If it is very wide-bladed, I'd guess Arab. Why Chinese? China is not known for wide-bladed swords, and I can't think of any wide-bladed Chinese swords with fullers like these. Wide-bladed Chinese swords would be mainly relatively modern dao, perhaps Tibetan monster swords (some appear to be Chinese-made), and modern martial arts swords. The bronze ones up-thread are (probably) very short, not very wide.

(Given the lack of Chinese wide-bladed swords, I'b be interested in seeing more details on historical precedent for this project mentioned, if the parties involved are willing.)

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Tom King




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 3:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Roush wrote:
Joel.. I'm not sure. It could be that it broke or corroded through in a way to appear to have a tip. That is certainly possible. If that is true then it could just be a double fullered Migration sword then...


Just my two cents, but to me at least it looks like the central ridge of the fuller extends all the way to the "tip"; i'd assume even a short sword would go more lenticular in cross section towards the tip. Personally that leaves me to believe it may be broken and the forces of nature decided to give it a new point, which when you tilt your head appears a bit asymmetrical.



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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 3:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Timo..

Matthiew posted pictures of the 'Chinese broadswords' I've been mentioning. The picture above.. with the more diamond cross section is very similar to the one I'm working on. But these were bronze age swords.. so maybe you are familiar? But he did mention a possible iron one which would be really cool.

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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Chinese tanged bronze blades of such proportions I've seen dimensions for usually have blades about 20-30cm long, and about 4-5cm wide. Warring States mostly, and a few Qin. These are about the same width as typical longer Warring States bronze jian (which are usually still quite short). I wouldn't call them "broadswords", and would perhaps call them daggers rather than swords.

Here is one example with dimensions given: #71 on http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.bronzeweapons2.htm ; this has a longer tang than most. Usually the tang only goes a fairly short distance into the hilt. Sometimes, there is a disc pommel and tubular grip (cast together, I think), and the tang is pinned into this.

Here is a quite wide iron sword: #88 on http://www.arscives.com/historysteel/cn.steelswords.htm ; comparing length and width, this looks to be 5.5cm wide.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 5:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Why did you not include this quite long example?



Although not double fullered.

Anyway.. I was mostly just curious as to what that particular sword was.. and most likely it's a degraded double fullered early European sword of some sort. I guess.

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Scott Roush
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PostPosted: Fri 05 Jul, 2013 5:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Tom...

Just saw your post. Yes.. you are probably right. Makes sense.

Anyway.. I'm certain it's not a Chinese sword.. :-) It was just one of those strange moments when I'm working on two different projects spanning two cultures.. and I was thrown when I saw that blade.

Edit: By the way.. I will be researching a pattern welded Migration period sword project soon.. and I'd love see more examples of double fullered swords from this period.. :-)

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