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Foong Chen Hong




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jun, 2013 4:44 am    Post subject: Armour used in 13 century         Reply with quote

I need a share bit of you guys' knowledge.

Beside the full body maille and great helms, is there any other type of body armour used?(Exclude the leather armour and gambeson)

Are splinted vambrace used in that time period?

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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jun, 2013 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes, there are padded aketons & gambesons on the body, and gamboissed cuisses on the thighs. There seems to be a limited use of scale armors over mail throughout the 1200s.
After c.1225 we see poleyns covering the knee.
From c. 1250 onward we have evidence for coats of plate on the torso and schynbalds on the lower leg.
After c. 1275 we begin to see a few rare couters on the elbow.

Metal splints riveted to leather don't start appearing until c. 1325.Simple metal splints worn directly over the mail on the forearm (similar in style to the gutter-shaped schynbald) may predate those by about a decade, but you're still left with a mail sleeve for the 13th centrury. At least I've never noticed any sort of plate on the forearm before 1300.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui
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Foong Chen Hong




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jun, 2013 12:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Oh thanks for the info, as I am trying to gather information for my 13 century templer kits

And what are these maille over hands and feet called?

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Ian S LaSpina




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PostPosted: Sun 16 Jun, 2013 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Over the hands you should expect to see maille mittens integrated in to the sleeve of the hauberk. I've seen these depicted with an opening on the inside of the wrist so you could slip your hand out of the hauberk for fine tasks, and then put the mitten back on when you required protection, but it was all attached. You can see what I'm describing here on this manuscript image dated from 1225-1249 France:



There's also tons of artwork from the same time that shows no coverings for the hands at all!

For the feet, the maille coverings will be integrated directly in to the ankle of the maille chausses.

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Foong Chen Hong




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jun, 2013 4:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:
Over the hands you should expect to see maille mittens integrated in to the sleeve of the hauberk. I've seen these depicted with an opening on the inside of the wrist so you could slip your hand out of the hauberk for fine tasks, and then put the mitten back on when you required protection, but it was all attached. You can see what I'm describing here on this manuscript image dated from 1225-1249 France:



There's also tons of artwork from the same time that shows no coverings for the hands at all!

For the feet, the maille coverings will be integrated directly in to the ankle of the maille chausses.


Interesting, does the leather gloves common in both 12 and 13 century?

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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Mon 17 Jun, 2013 4:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And take a look at the Ralph de Nesle inventory. If you were at the top by the last decade at least you could have plate armour over mail for most of the body.

RPM
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Foong Chen Hong




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PostPosted: Sat 22 Jun, 2013 5:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

thanks for the source, poeple Happy
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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jul, 2013 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Mart Shearer wrote:
Yes, there are padded aketons & gambesons on the body, and gamboissed cuisses on the thighs. There seems to be a limited use of scale armors over mail throughout the 1200s.
After c.1225 we see poleyns covering the knee.
From c. 1250 onward we have evidence for coats of plate on the torso and schynbalds on the lower leg.
After c. 1275 we begin to see a few rare couters on the elbow.

.


I think I would probably add 25-40 years to most of those dates. just stick with mail and aketon and you can't go wrong.
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Foong Chen Hong




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PostPosted: Mon 01 Jul, 2013 11:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian Robson wrote:
Mart Shearer wrote:
Yes, there are padded aketons & gambesons on the body, and gamboissed cuisses on the thighs. There seems to be a limited use of scale armors over mail throughout the 1200s.
After c.1225 we see poleyns covering the knee.
From c. 1250 onward we have evidence for coats of plate on the torso and schynbalds on the lower leg.
After c. 1275 we begin to see a few rare couters on the elbow.

.


I think I would probably add 25-40 years to most of those dates. just stick with mail and aketon and you can't go wrong.


And then I will have to figure out what style of Aketon(or gambeson?) was used in 13 century and where to buy them.

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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 2:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Foong Chen Hong wrote:
And then I will have to figure out what style of Aketon(or gambeson?) was used in 13 century and where to buy them.


I would reccomend http://www.medieval-market.com/

They list their gambesons by century - and are pretty accurate. Their main 13c offering is 3-layers - which is great for standalone armour, but too thick to go under mail comfortably. So if you want it to go under mail you could probably ask them to make you one with only 1 or 2 layers of padding. (I use their 1 layer 'padded tunic' over mail which is over a home-made gamby of similiar thickness to their 1-layer garments. Overall the combined protection is excellent).

The downside of their main 13c gamby (type-5) is that it has no fastenings - ie. you pull it over the head. Which is a bit of a pain if you'll be fighting in it because once it gets wet(sweaty), it becomes very difficult to get back off. But this IS authentic for the period. An alternative, if you want it under mail (which will hide the fastenings) is the Type 10 which is front-fastening. The shape is ok for c13 - but note that it is missing the collar. You may need to make/source your own seperate collar.

Also anything you order is made-to-measure too.

Oh, and if your interest is mid-13c, Western European, check out the Morgan Bible as a starting point (if you havn't already) - http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_images.htm

Loads of well-drawn military images dated to 'around 1250'.

Oh, and here's a pic of our group which is heavily influenced by the Morgan Bible:

http://s914.photobucket.com/user/DoCReenactme...9662460432

Far left is a Medieval Market type-5 gambeson. Next to it is a Kovex Ars greathelm. I'm near the middle with a red Medieval Market 'Padded tunic'.
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Foong Chen Hong




Location: Malaysia
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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 3:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, I also found a cheaper alternative from other website(steel mastery) with historical accurate as well.

Also, it must have being fun having group of people together Big Grin

South East Asia lack this type of activity.

So I am on my own going as a 13 century Templar and only attending Cosplay event.

Descanse En Paz
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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 7:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I havn't seen any of their gambesons up-close or tried them in combat - but it is certainly cheaper!

Can I suggest that if you go for that you upgrade to linen outer and linings to make the visible material authentic. Don't go for lace-on arms and be aware that the holes under the arms are not authentic, and I don't believe the neck-fastening at the back is either (at least I havn't seen any evidence of it).

Al long as you ok with that (which seem to be very reasonable concessions for the price) - then go for it.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 10:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Foong,

If you want something that looks period and has period closure and material I'd be careful where you buy from. Nothing worse than all poly materials and getting cooked in one.

And if I were you I'd look here for what they looked like over a vendor site.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/

Just type the dates in and region and boom, done.

Brian,

I think Mart's dates are pretty good for when the objects start to appear. When they are common is another matter but for the most part I think his dates mirror art and textual evidence fairly well.

You are right aketon and mail is pretty safe.

RPM
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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 12:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:


Brian,

I think Mart's dates are pretty good for when the objects start to appear. When they are common is another matter but for the most part I think his dates mirror art and textual evidence fairly well.

You are right aketon and mail is pretty safe.

RPM


I'd have to ask for the evidence for those as I'm obviously missing something. (I tend to look at common use rather than the rarities to be able to guide our group). By the way, I tend to discount depictions of Goliath as evidence for schynbalds - and I'm also not convinced that some of the glimpses of additional armour under surcotes are cotes of plates. They may be, but we can't know that.
I'm especially intrigued on poleyns for 1225 though.

I like the following graphs, and would love there to be an equivalent for the 12-12c too - but I think they do show quite clearly how the vast, vast majority of effigies still show only mail at the beginning of the 14c.

http://talbotsfineaccessories.com/armour/effigy/All-Effigies.htm

If these are accurate (and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be), most of those things still don't become common until well into the 14c. If we then ask if only the richer knights could afford an effigy..? those who can also afford the best armour..?
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 2:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian,
I think you and Randall are both quite correct in that aketon and mail would be quite normal, perhaps with gamboissed cuisses over the chausses. As Randall noted, I was giving earliest dates, not widespread adoption. On the schynbalds, there are other mid-13th century depictions, such as the Trinity Apocalypse, Cambridge MS R.16.2, fo23r. Here's a quick example on the early cover of Osprey's Warrior #48, English Medieval Knight 1200-1300.

Or you can use the link to the digitized manuscript fo a better "zoom" view. (folio 23r)
http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/library/manuscripts...fullpage=1
The schynbalds are worn over back-laced mail chausses and also show a poleyn over the knee. While Osprey gives this a "c.1250-1260" date (Cambridge simply gives c. 1250), the helmets and laced chausses point to a slightly earlier date of 1240-1250 in my opinion.

Next, I would not be so quick to dismiss the Maciejowski Bible's depiction of Goliath's scynbalds. While it is true that the Bible describes him wearing "greaves of brass", the French illustrator has chosen not to show them in yellow or gilt. Nothing else about the depiction seems to attempt to portray an "ancient" or "other" as is occaisionally done in sculpture, but less so in miniatures. Goliath isn't wearing scale armor, but mail. The helmet is not some fancy Byzantine influenced piece, but a framed chapel de fer. If you look at the whole of manuscript miniatures depictions of Goliath, you will find that they most often reflect the armor trends of the time they were created.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags="Goliath"

On the issue of knee protection, we must first remember that long surcoats keep us from seeing a great deal in the visual record of miniatures, sculpture, etc. One clear depiction of oval-shaped poleyns over vertical quilted gamboissed cuisses appears on the Reliquary of St. Maurice of Abbot Nantelm, firmly dated to 1225.
http://www.abbaye-stmaurice.ch/home-home-english.html
Quote:
The Shrine of Abbot Nantelm, 1225

An inscription informs us of the origin of this shrine: The Year of grace 1225, the 7 of the calends of November, the body of Saint Maurice was raised and deposited in this shrine at the time of Nantelm, Abbot of this place. This shrine, with its iconographic program, has great theological depth and leads us to consider the essential bond between martyrdom and the Eucharist. It is the quintessence of Saint Augustinís theology of the mystical Body of Christ.

The two kneeling figures to the right of St. Maurice are also shown in David Nicolle's line drawings in Arms and Armour of the Crusading Era,

I hope you find this information useful, rather than some sort of "put-down". I agree largely that these items are in the minority for decades to come.

ferrum ferro acuitur et homo exacuit faciem amici sui


Last edited by Mart Shearer on Tue 02 Jul, 2013 6:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for that, Mart. I should have remembered the Trinity Apocalypse pic.. I have that book on my bedside table, and have spent ages pondering about those pointy shoulders!

My main issue with Goliath depictions, however, is that I don't believe I've seen any where he hasn't been the only image in the scene with schynbalds - making me sceptical that it was a known armour type for that period. Of course, the Trinity Apocalypse proves me wrong as at least the odd king had a pair!

Hm. Just had a thought on the Mac Bible Goliath... It also shows gamboised cuisses - yet you don't see anyone wearing them in the whole document with mail chausses. There is a pic of somebody sitting on the floor and putting them on while being attacked so the artist was definately aware of them. Maybe it raises the possibility that they, and the schynbalds were commonly being worn under mail chausses?

I'll have to try and find some better pictures of the Reliquary of St Maurice. That sounds very intriguing as its almost 100 years before they became commonly used. Usually that gap is much smaller.

I don't see it as a put-down at all. I know I have gaps when it comes to the exceptions to the rule - as I mentioned, my focus is in defining the common look for the period and then making sure our group fits into it (which generally means banning most of the exceptions, because human nature makes everyone want to do something a little different, and then copy those differences - then you end up with a group that does not look 'typical' of the period - even if everything included can be provenenced.) so I have a habit of paying little attention to the rarities when looking into stuff.
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 6:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Brian,

I have wondered that same thing actually many times. I made some shynbaulds and I can wear them under even pretty well fit jeans and no one can even see them. Once I wore them much of the day to see if they would leave armour bites or anything under my slacks and they were totally impossible to see.

Here are some padded cuisses- this one don't blink because it is easy to miss but clearly present 1220-1230. I saw this several times before seeing the padded cuisses.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms18/4549/

padded cuisse-1230
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/carnet-de-des...9093/1423/

And a poleyn- 1225-1249
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-moralis...2554/3836/
1230-1250
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms39/4558/

Both 1240
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/heisterbacher...l379/6656/


The trinity and Goliath are the two I use for shynbaulds mostly so I will look for more but best I can think of as well.

The couters show up on the Effigy in Salisbury on William Longespee dated 1250-1270 or so. He has poleyns as well.

Take a look at Thom Richardson's PhD for good info on the pair of plates. They are clearly getting into pretty common use by the 1250s and 1260s. He has several pretty early ones. I posted on here long ago from the Patent Rolls and sadly when my computer died I have not been able to find it (IF ANY HERE HAVE IT I"D LOVE THE CITATIONS!!!! Wink ). Basically by Henry III they are in use and since we have the earliest uses likely in the late 12th with people like Richard I not surprised than 50 years later they had increased in use.

If I forgot anything let me know.

RPM
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Mart Shearer




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PostPosted: Tue 02 Jul, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is the best online image of St. Maurice from the reliquary which I've found, though the saint's surcoat totally obscures the upper leg: (The pointy shoulders are there, as well as an apparent strap across the muffler opening.)

Unfortunately it doesn't show the two soldiers to his right. There is a broader shot available online, but they reversed the image. where the helm sits to the right, and the writing is backwards, so the hoped-for two knights are actually from the other side. If you do find an example, please share.

Some more early gamboissed cuisses:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4572/11745/

This well-known miniature seems to indicate poleyns, so one has to wonder how often the poleyns are under or within the cuisses?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4065/7844/

EDITED TO ADD: Here's the cropped and brightened B&W image from Bildindex:



 Attachment: 88.13 KB
ch00104a08a.jpg


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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul, 2013 1:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Brian,

Here are some padded cuisses- this one don't blink because it is easy to miss but clearly present 1220-1230. I saw this several times before seeing the padded cuisses.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms18/4549/

Hehe - I think I did blink there too originally. Can't say I'd noticed that one before.

Randall Moffett wrote:

padded cuisse-1230
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/carnet-de-des...9093/1423/

Yep, I'm familiar with that one. I'm not contesting padded cuisses - My Mac Bible comments were purely to indicate their possible use under chausses.

Randall Moffett wrote:

And a poleyn- 1225-1249
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-moralis...2554/3836/

I think it's difficult to say if they are poleyns or cuisses.


Randall Moffett wrote:

1230-1250
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms39/4558/

Havn't seen that one before, it's the same style as the Longespee effigy below.

Randall Moffett wrote:

Both 1240
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/heisterbacher...l379/6656/

Havn't seen that one before either. The Germans certainly seem to be ahead of french/English in terms of hard defences.

Randall Moffett wrote:

The couters show up on the Effigy in Salisbury on William Longespee dated 1250-1270 or so. He has poleyns as well.

I have seen that one - but I'm always very sceptical of the datings of effigies that show these kinds of exceptions as we know they're often completed many years after the death of the figure they're depicting. But your earlier link showing a similar style does add some credence to that date.

I will have to look for Thoms PhD on the coat of plates. The only clear evidence I've seen for them during that period are the well-known armoured surcotes of St Maurice and the Wienhausen Monestary effigy(1270).
We have plenty of tantalising clues to hardened defences - like the pointy shoulders, and the odd effigy with straps showing at the sides under the surcote - but there's no way of knowing what is hidden there. I don't believe that the pointy shoulders are coats of plates - they are much more indicative of a shaped, hardened leather defence, and the way they stand makes them look like a continuation of a whole chest-piece. And we also don't know what form Richard's iron defence was. it could have been attatched th the hauberk, or the aketon, or hung from a piece of string around the neck! We can't say that it was a coat of plates. All it does show is that supplementary defences were being looked at and experimented with.

Definately thanks for that information, though!
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Brian Robson





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PostPosted: Wed 03 Jul, 2013 1:40 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for those, Mart.

The helmets are definately fitting with the early part of the 13c. Definately surprised to see those and poleyns together!
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