[Foong Chen Hong]

I need a share bit of you guys' knowledge.

Beside the full body maille and great helms, is there any other type of body armour used?(Exclude the leather armour and gambeson)

Are splinted vambrace used in that time period?

[Mart Shearer]

Yes, there are padded aketons & gambesons on the body, and gamboissed cuisses on the thighs. There seems to be a limited use of scale armors over mail throughout the 1200s.
After c.1225 we see poleyns covering the knee.
From c. 1250 onward we have evidence for coats of plate on the torso and schynbalds on the lower leg.
After c. 1275 we begin to see a few rare couters on the elbow.

Metal splints riveted to leather don't start appearing until c. 1325.Simple metal splints worn directly over the mail on the forearm (similar in style to the gutter-shaped schynbald) may predate those by about a decade, but you're still left with a mail sleeve for the 13th centrury. At least I've never noticed any sort of plate on the forearm before 1300.

[Foong Chen Hong]

Oh thanks for the info, as I am trying to gather information for my 13 century templer kits

And what are these maille over hands and feet called?

[Ian S LaSpina]

Over the hands you should expect to see maille mittens integrated in to the sleeve of the hauberk. I've seen these depicted with an opening on the inside of the wrist so you could slip your hand out of the hauberk for fine tasks, and then put the mitten back on when you required protection, but it was all attached. You can see what I'm describing here on this manuscript image dated from 1225-1249 France:



There's also tons of artwork from the same time that shows no coverings for the hands at all!

For the feet, the maille coverings will be integrated directly in to the ankle of the maille chausses.

[Foong Chen Hong]

[Randall Moffett]

And take a look at the Ralph de Nesle inventory. If you were at the top by the last decade at least you could have plate armour over mail for most of the body.

RPM

[Foong Chen Hong]

thanks for the source, poeple

[Brian Robson]

[Foong Chen Hong]

[Brian Robson]

[Foong Chen Hong]

Well, I also found a cheaper alternative from other website(steel mastery) with historical accurate as well.

Also, it must have being fun having group of people together

South East Asia lack this type of activity.

So I am on my own going as a 13 century Templar and only attending Cosplay event.

[Brian Robson]

I havn't seen any of their gambesons up-close or tried them in combat - but it is certainly cheaper!

Can I suggest that if you go for that you upgrade to linen outer and linings to make the visible material authentic. Don't go for lace-on arms and be aware that the holes under the arms are not authentic, and I don't believe the neck-fastening at the back is either (at least I havn't seen any evidence of it).

Al long as you ok with that (which seem to be very reasonable concessions for the price) - then go for it.

[Randall Moffett]

Foong,

If you want something that looks period and has period closure and material I'd be careful where you buy from. Nothing worse than all poly materials and getting cooked in one.

And if I were you I'd look here for what they looked like over a vendor site.

http://manuscriptminiatures.com/

Just type the dates in and region and boom, done.

Brian,

I think Mart's dates are pretty good for when the objects start to appear. When they are common is another matter but for the most part I think his dates mirror art and textual evidence fairly well.

You are right aketon and mail is pretty safe.

RPM

[Brian Robson]

[Mart Shearer]

Brian,
I think you and Randall are both quite correct in that aketon and mail would be quite normal, perhaps with gamboissed cuisses over the chausses. As Randall noted, I was giving earliest dates, not widespread adoption. On the schynbalds, there are other mid-13th century depictions, such as the Trinity Apocalypse, Cambridge MS R.16.2, fo23r. Here's a quick example on the early cover of Osprey's Warrior #48, English Medieval Knight 1200-1300.

Or you can use the link to the digitized manuscript fo a better "zoom" view. (folio 23r)
http://www.trin.cam.ac.uk/library/manuscripts...fullpage=1
The schynbalds are worn over back-laced mail chausses and also show a poleyn over the knee. While Osprey gives this a "c.1250-1260" date (Cambridge simply gives c. 1250), the helmets and laced chausses point to a slightly earlier date of 1240-1250 in my opinion.

Next, I would not be so quick to dismiss the Maciejowski Bible's depiction of Goliath's scynbalds. While it is true that the Bible describes him wearing "greaves of brass", the French illustrator has chosen not to show them in yellow or gilt. Nothing else about the depiction seems to attempt to portray an "ancient" or "other" as is occaisionally done in sculpture, but less so in miniatures. Goliath isn't wearing scale armor, but mail. The helmet is not some fancy Byzantine influenced piece, but a framed chapel de fer. If you look at the whole of manuscript miniatures depictions of Goliath, you will find that they most often reflect the armor trends of the time they were created.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?tags="Goliath"

On the issue of knee protection, we must first remember that long surcoats keep us from seeing a great deal in the visual record of miniatures, sculpture, etc. One clear depiction of oval-shaped poleyns over vertical quilted gamboissed cuisses appears on the Reliquary of St. Maurice of Abbot Nantelm, firmly dated to 1225.
http://www.abbaye-stmaurice.ch/home-home-english.html

[Brian Robson]

Thanks for that, Mart. I should have remembered the Trinity Apocalypse pic.. I have that book on my bedside table, and have spent ages pondering about those pointy shoulders!

My main issue with Goliath depictions, however, is that I don't believe I've seen any where he hasn't been the only image in the scene with schynbalds - making me sceptical that it was a known armour type for that period. Of course, the Trinity Apocalypse proves me wrong as at least the odd king had a pair!

Hm. Just had a thought on the Mac Bible Goliath... It also shows gamboised cuisses - yet you don't see anyone wearing them in the whole document with mail chausses. There is a pic of somebody sitting on the floor and putting them on while being attacked so the artist was definately aware of them. Maybe it raises the possibility that they, and the schynbalds were commonly being worn under mail chausses?

I'll have to try and find some better pictures of the Reliquary of St Maurice. That sounds very intriguing as its almost 100 years before they became commonly used. Usually that gap is much smaller.

I don't see it as a put-down at all. I know I have gaps when it comes to the exceptions to the rule - as I mentioned, my focus is in defining the common look for the period and then making sure our group fits into it (which generally means banning most of the exceptions, because human nature makes everyone want to do something a little different, and then copy those differences - then you end up with a group that does not look 'typical' of the period - even if everything included can be provenenced.) so I have a habit of paying little attention to the rarities when looking into stuff.

[Randall Moffett]

Brian,

I have wondered that same thing actually many times. I made some shynbaulds and I can wear them under even pretty well fit jeans and no one can even see them. Once I wore them much of the day to see if they would leave armour bites or anything under my slacks and they were totally impossible to see.

Here are some padded cuisses- this one don't blink because it is easy to miss but clearly present 1220-1230. I saw this several times before seeing the padded cuisses.
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms18/4549/

padded cuisse-1230
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/carnet-de-des...9093/1423/

And a poleyn- 1225-1249
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-moralis...2554/3836/
1230-1250
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/bible-bib-mazarine-ms39/4558/

Both 1240
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/heisterbacher...l379/6656/


The trinity and Goliath are the two I use for shynbaulds mostly so I will look for more but best I can think of as well.

The couters show up on the Effigy in Salisbury on William Longespee dated 1250-1270 or so. He has poleyns as well.

Take a look at Thom Richardson's PhD for good info on the pair of plates. They are clearly getting into pretty common use by the 1250s and 1260s. He has several pretty early ones. I posted on here long ago from the Patent Rolls and sadly when my computer died I have not been able to find it (IF ANY HERE HAVE IT I"D LOVE THE CITATIONS!!!! ). Basically by Henry III they are in use and since we have the earliest uses likely in the late 12th with people like Richard I not surprised than 50 years later they had increased in use.

If I forgot anything let me know.

RPM

[Mart Shearer]

This is the best online image of St. Maurice from the reliquary which I've found, though the saint's surcoat totally obscures the upper leg: (The pointy shoulders are there, as well as an apparent strap across the muffler opening.)

Unfortunately it doesn't show the two soldiers to his right. There is a broader shot available online, but they reversed the image. where the helm sits to the right, and the writing is backwards, so the hoped-for two knights are actually from the other side. If you do find an example, please share.

Some more early gamboissed cuisses:
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4572/11745/

This well-known miniature seems to indicate poleyns, so one has to wonder how often the poleyns are under or within the cuisses?
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4065/7844/

EDITED TO ADD: Here's the cropped and brightened B&W image from Bildindex:

[Brian Robson]

[Brian Robson]

Thanks for those, Mart.

The helmets are definately fitting with the early part of the 13c. Definately surprised to see those and poleyns together!