Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > The Albion Knecht Mark II Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 1:05 am    Post subject: The Albion Knecht Mark II         Reply with quote

This sword or big knife as some people refer to it has caught my attention. Out of all of Albions line up, this sword seems the safest to handle due to it's single edge "less chance to cut yourself" and although it's an old design, it strikes me as the most contemporary type of sword as well. Does anyone own this or have experience handling it? What do you think?

View user's profile Send private message
R.M. Henson




Location: Honolulu Hawaii
Joined: 14 Feb 2008
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 49

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 2:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

In my humble non-expert opinion and limited experience handling live swords I don't think that having one less live edge makes a sword inherently safer. It's all up to the person using it that determines it's safety.

In terms of it being more "contemporary" I suppose in comparison to the majority of Albion's Next Generation line up, historically it is technically newer in design. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kriegsmessers didn't gain popularity until the 1500's.

Besides Cold Steel and Albion I don't think anyone else produces a Kriegsmesser, and Albion (from what I hear) produces the best ones available that aren't custom made. Definitely my favorite sword in their NG lineup.

Unfortunately there hasn't been a review of it on myArmoury, I'm hoping one day someone will give it a proper review.

Here's a short review from another site:
http://www.tritonworks.com/reviews?content=re...ion_knecht

and a short discussion on another forum:
http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...ion-knecht

Compagni of Schola St. George
http://www.scholasaintgeorge.org/
View user's profile Send private message
Christian Henry Tobler
Industry Professional



Location: Oxford, CT
Joined: 25 Aug 2003

Posts: 690

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 8:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello Christopher,

I wouldn't call the Knecht an inherently 'safer' sword either - in fact, I consider mine to the be perhaps the most powerful cutting weapon in my collection.

If you're 'in the market', you might want to see if you can acquire a second hand Mark I. These are, to my mind, a bit more 'representative of type' than the Mark II, which lacks the 'sandwiched scale' construction of the Mark I.

But in either case (I or II), you'll have an exquisite weapon in your collection - this is truly one of my favorites!

All the best,

Christian

Christian Henry Tobler
Order of Selohaar

Freelance Academy Press: Books on Western Martial Arts and Historical Swordsmanship

Author, In Saint George's Name: An Anthology of Medieval German Fighting Arts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seems like this sword is right up my alley. Oh the price! No worries, I'm gonna get it anyway.
View user's profile Send private message
Paul Watson




Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Joined: 08 Feb 2006

Posts: 394

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Be aware this is definitely a 2 handed weapon, I have seen comments about single hand use but I cannot agree. This does not mean it is unwieldly or heavy, it is just clear it is meant for 2 hands. It is stunning and has a much more complex blade than the photos show. It is a tremendous cutter as noted and the point is reinforced enough and the spine is stiff enough for effective thrusting although the shape of the point would limit types of armour this would be effective against.

Don't ever call the Knecht safe, it is anything but for all the right reasons and the blade is scary to behold. The end portion has a very acute angle to the cutting plane as the spine is about 2mm or less and the plane of the blade is only formed in one direction due to it's single edge nature.

The handling feels very different to other Albions I have owned and I think much of this has to do with the fact ithas a small pommel cap instead of a typically larger pommel. It may feel very different but it is still quick.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Watson wrote:
Be aware this is definitely a 2 handed weapon, I have seen comments about single hand use but I cannot agree. This does not mean it is unwieldly or heavy, it is just clear it is meant for 2 hands. It is stunning and has a much more complex blade than the photos show. It is a tremendous cutter as noted and the point is reinforced enough and the spine is stiff enough for effective thrusting although the shape of the point would limit types of armour this would be effective against.

Don't ever call the Knecht safe, it is anything but for all the right reasons and the blade is scary to behold. The end portion has a very acute angle to the cutting plane as the spine is about 2mm or less and the plane of the blade is only formed in one direction due to it's single edge nature.

The handling feels very different to other Albions I have owned and I think much of this has to do with the fact ithas a small pommel cap instead of a typically larger pommel. It may feel very different but it is still quick.


I think you misunderstood what I meant when I said it was safer. It's a large bladed weapon that was originally designed to kill other people, of course it's not safe in that regard, the potential of it is blatantly scary. When I said that, I was referring to some stances right out of Hans Talhoffer, where a traditional double edged blade sword had the edge close to your shoulder and whatnot.

I could be completely wrong about this, I am pretty knew to swords, but it just seems to me that there is less room for self injury with a single edged blade. What I was getting at was less prone to have an accident on yourself.
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Hanson




Location: La Crosse, WI
Joined: 19 Jul 2006
Likes: 3 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having a single edge also means you can't perform some of the techniques you can with a double edged sword.

I have a Mark I Knecht, and an Earl. Both are excellent swords, and I don't feel like I would injury myself more easily with the Earl than I would with the Knecht.

Proverbs 27:17 "As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another"

Wisconsin Historical Fencing Association (WHFA)
A HEMA Alliance Affiliate
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 605

PostPosted: Sun 23 Dec, 2012 9:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul, thank you for your observations on the Knecht. Could you describe the reinforcement of the point, is it actually thickened or does it just have a steeper bevel near the tip? Also, in what way is the blade more complex than it appears in photos? I am gathering every data point I can on original and reproduction messers, so any bits you can provide will be greatly appreciated. Measurements maybe even?
View user's profile Send private message
Paul Watson




Location: Upper Hutt, New Zealand
Joined: 08 Feb 2006

Posts: 394

PostPosted: Mon 24 Dec, 2012 1:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just briefly, the sword by feel appears to have a non linear distal taper. This is a unproven statement as I have only GUESSED this by running my forefinger and thumb together down the spine of the blade with my eyes closed and just got a feel of how the blade tapers. As it gets near the point the spine appears to measure with a tape 1/16 inch wide about 3 inches from the tip tapering minimally to just under 1/16 inch wide about 1/8 inch from the tip and then curving to a sharp point in that last 1/8 inch. In this last 1/8 inch it may also swell a little before terminating to a point. I cannot tell for sure, I do not have the best "eye" for this sort of thing and it may just be an illusion. This is just the spine of the point however, if you look down the point oriented from the cutting side, then it is clear that the body of the blade behind the cutting edge of the point swells out and at the point is thicker than the equivalent area immediately preceeding this. The real beauty of all of this is it all happens within small fractions of an inch. All this swelling and thickening is subtle but (mostly) evident, and every change merges to the nesxt seemlessly, a real testament to the research and workmanship involved in this blade. If anyone wonders why Albions cost what they do, they should just study and appreciate these aspects of the swords.

The spine is not quite 5/16 inch wide at the cross.

With regards to the blade complexity is is not simply a narrow triangular section going to an even narrower triangular section. I think again by feel, in the last part of the blade, excluding the last 3/4 or inch of point, the cross section may be as follows. It goes from the spine being the thickest part, narrowing gradually, then swelling again slightly in thickness before narrowing again and then having the final shape to form the cutting edge.

I may run over this with calipers during my holiday break if I get the time.

It is such a freakin awesome sword.

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, but that which it protects. (Faramir, The Two Towers)
View user's profile Send private message
David Sutton




Location: Bolton, UK
Joined: 06 Mar 2007
Likes: 15 pages
Reading list: 39 books

Posts: 230

PostPosted: Mon 24 Dec, 2012 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
The real beauty of all of this is it all happens within small fractions of an inch. All this swelling and thickening is subtle but (mostly) evident, and every change merges to the nesxt seemlessly, a real testament to the research and workmanship involved in this blade. If anyone wonders why Albions cost what they do, they should just study and appreciate these aspects of the swords.


That is an excellent point but one that appears lost on some. Albions are not expensive because they are shiny and well finished, but because they capture the subtle details and qualities of original period swords, in a way every other 'production' sword maker almost always fails to do (with the probable exception of Arms and Armour, though I've yet to handle one of their swords).

For example a couple of years ago I had the privilege to handle several period swords from the collection of the Royal Armouries Museum at Leeds. One of the swords was the often published Oakeshott Type XIX from the Alexandria Arsenal (XIX.7 from Records of the Medieval Sword pg 204). When I held this sword in my hand (by the way its a beautifully light and nimble sword) I noticed that the blade's distal taper swells slightly at the point, effectively re-enforcing it against rolling or bending in a thrust. Now this is exactly the kind of detail that Albion captures. I've owned swords from Hanwei, Windlass, Del Tin, Deepeeka and although they were mostly decent, good swords, none of them captured the nuances of a period blade like Albion.

'Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all'

'To teach superstitions as truth is a most terrible thing'

Hypatia of Alexandria, c400AD
View user's profile Send private message
Christopher B Lellis




Location: Houston, Texas
Joined: 01 Dec 2012

Posts: 268

PostPosted: Mon 24 Dec, 2012 2:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Scott Hanson wrote:
Having a single edge also means you can't perform some of the techniques you can with a double edged sword.

I have a Mark I Knecht, and an Earl. Both are excellent swords, and I don't feel like I would injury myself more easily with the Earl than I would with the Knecht.


Ok, I'll take your word for it, I was wrong.
View user's profile Send private message
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 605

PostPosted: Mon 24 Dec, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just another little data point about self-injury with swords. I have spent a lot of the last 20 years with a sword in my hand, and have only cut myself while polishing or sharpening, never while cutting. I regularly rest the back edge of very sharp swords on my shoulder, do half-sword thrusting and mortschlag without gloves and have never cut myself. Those self injuries I am aware of mostly involve a cut to the outside of the left leg, due to either trying to power through a cut or failing to use correct footwork. I do not personally know of any injuries that resulted from a sword flying out of the hand or breaking and sending the blade flying, but I bet such a scenario would be the most dangerous. I wish you safe and fun cutting.

Thank you David and Paul, your observations are like gold to me. I really like the idea of reinforced points. My last Albion XVI bare blade had its point slightly reinforced by "twisting" the bevels so that they become steeper as they near the point, but the mid-line ridge did not thicken, though I tried to maintain as much thickness as possible as close to the point as I could. I am getting another soon, and would like to try doing more of a thickened point. I assume that the thickening is only about a mm, correct? By the way, I must say that the Albion bare blade was money really well spent. Grinding and finishing an Albion bare blade CNC blank really gives one an appreciation for the skill involved in turning the blank into a good sword. I think people who denigrate Albions as "machined' or just a "CNC blade" should try buying a bare blade blank and give hand-grinding it a try. I hope I did not stray to far off topic.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > The Albion Knecht Mark II
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2019 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum