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Dylan Hopper




Location: United States
Joined: 09 Aug 2012

Posts: 7

PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 5:35 pm    Post subject: BK Tactical SkyMarshall S7 from Angel Sword         Reply with quote

Hello, everyone. This is my first post so please excuse me if I am posting in the wrong forum.

From what I've read on your forums and other forums, this Angel Sword company seems to be loathed or loved by all. So, I would please ask that we refrain from starting a debate about their products. Thank you. I should also mention that I know nothing about weapons, melee-active history, or steel. I apologize if I seem too newbish.

Any way, I have been looking at this weapon from their website and it seems to be the one that I've always been searching for. It's not really a historical weapon at all but it is the ideal design that I've always wanted. The problem is... it's $1,000 USD. I can't really fathom how a piece of 1.25' steel with 3/16" thickness and a wrapped handle would run that much but I assume it has to do something with this patented "Advanced-Thermal processing" and S7 Shock Resistant steel.

So, my question to you all is (and this may be a shot in the dark): have any of you ever seen a similar design to this weapon? I do like the wrapped handle but mainly it is just the shape of the blade. Nice and straight with a rounded edge and then the handle is dripped down.

I'm aware that is a pretty vague specification but if anyone knows where I could get a weapon like that for a price that wouldn't put me out on the street, I would be much obliged. I'll attach the image of the weapon in question, as well.

Thank you all again so much.

ETA: The link to the weapon: http://www.angelswordstore.com/index.php?page...;Itemid=92



 Attachment: 130.51 KB
BK Tactical SkyMarshall S7 [ Download ]


Last edited by Dylan Hopper on Thu 09 Aug, 2012 6:35 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Take your time before deciding on what to buy and be skeptical about advertising buzz words like " battle ready " for example that is almost meaningless for example except that it " might " differentiate from a wall hanger with a fragile handle assembly ( Rat tail tang ) that might break at the guard if one waves the sword in the air a little too fast.

Same thing about secret patented magic steel and secret heat treat processes. ( Buyer beware. Wink )

If you are buying an Albion sword or A&A sword or any other high end production sword you should expect to pay at least in the $800 to $2000 range in price depending on the model of sword.


There are also much less expensive swords make of quality materials and good design, for some of their swords offerings, by other companies that can range from $300 to $600 more or less. ( Hanwey or Windlass for example ).

There are also, way over priced swords and designs not any better than a $300 sword but priced like a high end product.

If it looks like a sharpened crowbar, has no subtleties of profile or distal taper and handles like a sharpened crowbar it might not justify a premium price.

So spend a little time here looking at reviews, check out the different production makers and custom makers to see what the quality stuff looks like and at what prices and then decide if a specific sword seems to meet the same quality/price criteria.

Reading a bit about steels and heat treats ( Feature articles here on " myArmoury " or google it ) should help in being able to tell the difference between accurate specifications versus advertising hype.

Well, to answer your specific question about " where " to find you could search on this site that has just about everything from low end to high end swords and is a very good and reliable vendor who has a great reputation for great customer service: http://www.kultofathena.com/

You can even e-mail Ryan Whittlinger, the owner, if you need honest advice about what product at what price range you are looking for.

This one at half the price: http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...al+Yatagan

Or look at this, scroll down to middle and there is something similar to what you want:
http://imakeswords.com/tactical.htm

Home page of above: http://imakeswords.com/products.htm

Good quality steel and heat treat by the way.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dylan Hopper




Location: United States
Joined: 09 Aug 2012

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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much, Jean, for your reply.

Actually, the main reason I was interested in the blade is because the claim of "500% more durability" enticed me. I'm very interested in find a blade that is actually "battle ready" as you put. Of course, the weapon I am looking at isn't a sword at all so I'd be less worried about it breaking. I have bought cheap blades in the past (swords included) that always broke over something silly.

I'm sure this is a daft question but.. do manufactures even produce swords with "battle" in mind any more? It seems to be more-or-less about showcasing but I'm actually looking for a weapon that can take and deal abuse.

Those links look great and I'll be reading further into them after this post. Also, I will make sure to thoroughly scan the forums here.

Thank you once again for the reply, it means a lot to me.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 6:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dylan Hopper wrote:
Thank you very much, Jean, for your reply.

Actually, the main reason I was interested in the blade is because the claim of "500% more durability" enticed me. I'm very interested in find a blade that is actually "battle ready" as you put. Of course, the weapon I am looking at isn't a sword at all so I'd be less worried about it breaking. I have bought cheap blades in the past (swords included) that always broke over something silly.

I'm sure this is a daft question but.. do manufactures even produce swords with "battle" in mind any more? It seems to be more-or-less about showcasing but I'm actually looking for a weapon that can take and deal abuse.

Those links look great and I'll be reading further into them after this post. Also, I will make sure to thoroughly scan the forums here.

Thank you once again for the reply, it means a lot to me.

Depends on what you mean by "battle ready". Modern swords using modern alloy steals and controlled heat treats are MUCH tougher than historical swords. So real swords from people whos lives actually depended on them were significantly less tough than many of the offerings available today.

Often times modern makers overbuild their swords. A period sword would never be expected to hack into a cinder block undamaged or flex to 90 degrees repeatedly. Yet many modern sword buyers expect such things.

It sounds like you want a sword to take abuse. Just understand that real historical swords, swords that actually went through battles, were not designed to take such abuse...

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Thu 09 Aug, 2012 7:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dylan Hopper wrote:

I'm sure this is a daft question but.. do manufactures even produce swords with "battle" in mind any more? It seems to be more-or-less about showcasing but I'm actually looking for a weapon that can take and deal abuse.

Those links look great and I'll be reading further into them after this post. Also, I will make sure to thoroughly scan the forums here.

Thank you once again for the reply, it means a lot to me.


Glad to help, and even Kult of Athena uses the " Battle Ready " term because too many people expect to see it and think it means something: The Battle Ready is often in the makers' description and it gets repeated on the vendors site.

If by " Battle ready " you mean sound construction from good materials that would function in period for a historical sword like a sword should , then yes there are good swords out there if your expectations are realistic.

Keep in mind that even the best steel sword with take nicks and damage to the edge when used against another sword and swords are not meant to chop down trees etc ..... The 500% better than anyone else's steel is unrealistic because if such a miracle steel existed, every premium knife or sword maker would be using it, at least for modern sword interpretations.

No such thing as swords cutting concrete pillars in half and showing no damage. Wink Big Grin Cool

What a real sword is expected to survive is normal sword use and extremes of abuse will destroy or damage even the best custom sword.

Some short very heavy blades might survive hitting something like a large tree trunk or a steel structural beam but edges to cut have to be thin, so even if the rest of the sword is way overbuilt the edges will still nick, chip, roll if abused.

Unfortunately no " Light Sabres " or indestructible swords out there made of " UNOBTANIUM ".

But on the other end of the quality spectrum one can find swords or blades that are seriously inferior and will damage more easily than the high end ones.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 3:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dylan Hopper wrote:

Actually, the main reason I was interested in the blade is because the claim of "500% more durability" enticed me.


"500% more wear resistance" isn't "500% more durability" in what matters for swords. Very high wear resistance isn't even necessarily a good thing in a sword: harder to sharpen.

"Double the toughness" matters more. That's double compared to "good" conventional heat treatment of S7.

S7 looks like it might be a good sword steel. 0.5-0.55% carbon, high impact resistance (perhaps about 10% higher than 9260, for "good" conventional heat treatment of both the S7 and 9260). So, the claim is, approximately, "double the durability" of conventional "tough" swords.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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David Lewis Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 6:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You know, I carried a Cold Steal Carbon V Recon Tanto for over 24 years of military service. I abused that knife, once I put it on a 1/4 mild steel wire hit it on the ridge with a 3LBS Ball Peen hammer and cut the wire (dont ask, it was in Afghanistan, enough said on why) No reall damage to the edge. I finaly bought a new one about a year ago just because I wanted one, not needed to replace Old Faithful. Total cost for both knives? Less than 140 bucks, you can still find them for under 70, new in box.

Dave
who goes to bad places in the world

David L Smith
MSG (RET)
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 7:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Lewis Smith wrote:
I abused that knife, once I put it on a 1/4 mild steel wire hit it on the ridge with a 3LBS Ball Peen hammer and cut the wire (dont ask, it was in Afghanistan, enough said on why) No reall damage to the edge.

Dave
who goes to bad places in the world


You bring up a good point that edges can often take what looks like abuse and not show any substantial damage: A lot depends on the hardness of what you are cutting into, mild steel shouldn't hurt a good heat treated edge to an appreciable degree but the edge might lose some of it's sharpness if done all day long.

There are destructive tests done on Albion swords by Albion that show a Tritonia cutting numerous times into the mild steel rim of an oil barrel and showing no damage more than scuff marks. Also tests of bending a sword over 90 degrees from side to side and returning to true, at least for the first half dozen to a dozen cycles of bending, but eventually the sword took a set due to metal fatigue and exceeding the elastic limits of the steel.

So if one tried really hard it is possible to destroy a good sword.

Now, instead of cutting into mild steel wire you hit two cold steel knives edge to edge hard, they will both show some damage and nicks in the edges, these if not too deep can be sharpened out and the knives look as good as new, but damage will happen.

My point in earlier posts was that swords are not indestructible, but your experience shows that a quality blade can still take a certain degree of " abuse " or is it just hard use short of abuse or destructive testing.

It's always useful to show the range of variables. Wink Big Grin Cool

( By the way thank you for your service, and there where a lot Canadians in Afghanistan and there is still a Canadian presence of advisors and trainers still there ).

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 9:12 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What's your application for this weapon, Dylan? That's the essential piece of information. Really, not much else matters. If your life is on the line, price should be no obstacle. HOWEVER, those whose lives are truly in danger probably aren't worried about what knife they're carrying, much less paying $1000 for it. They're too busy tending their government-issued SCAR, M4, HK, etc. In fact, somewhere in these fora is an (apparently) informed observation that some SF guys really do get good kitchen knives and duct-tape the grips.

FWIW, when I wanted a new general-purpose sheath knife I got one of these to modify by shortening the blade from the tang end:

http://www.amazon.com/Old-Hickory-10-Butcher-Knife/dp/B000KKIT8U

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Matthew P. Adams




Location: Cape Cod, MA
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

"I can't really fathom how a piece of 1.25' steel with 3/16" thickness and a wrapped handle would run that much..."

Pretty much said it right there.

"We do not rise to the level of our expectations. We fall to the level of our training" Archilochus, Greek Soldier, Poet, c. 650 BC
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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dylan-

I noticed that the overall length of the S7 is actually 17 inches which would qualify it as a dagger. There are many custom makers who could make something of that size with similar characteristics for much less money. I might look into OlliN. They are quite good and have made similar looking weapons in the past. In fact, they have a weapon with a similar blade but different grip for sale right now for less than half of what the S7 costs.There is a link to OlliN on the links page of this site.
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Lee O'Hagan




Location: Northamptonshire,England
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 12:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lee Reeves posted a Q on this site elsewhere,
http://zombietools.net/tools/
there along the lines of what your looking at within a sensible budget,ignoring the title or sales pitch,the pieces shown look good value for money,the numbers and weights dont look bad,
the pieces arent to everyones tastes,but theres a few i'd happily buy if they were over here,
decent steel mentioned,5160,videos of use, havent watched them though,
but overall they look pretty good,
the gus Trim tactical line you might find second hand on asking,pretty good reviews,again 5160 from memory,
Tinker had some decent tactical stuff on his available page at last look,
some very good makers already mentioned, the BKS stuff looks cool,
as for the original mentioned,
it looks expensive for what it is,and i very much doubt the average human could push any of the mentioned blades far enough to prove any different,
for a $1000 personally AS wouldnt even be on my shortlist,
there are so many talented guys around at the moment,it's more a personnal thing where you end up buying,
take a look through the excellent makers list on this site,Wink
but overall,be safe,
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JE Sarge
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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I really like the Zombie Tools stuff for tactical applications. I don't care for the funky post-apocalyptic paint jobs, but the blades themselves are pretty damn nice. They have good balance, durability, and excellent cutting/thrusting properties. Their price will not break the bank, and for the price, you could have a 2-3 of the same model - which is the letter of the rules of redundancy in bad situations: having 1 = none, having 2 = 1.

As for Angel Sword, I have held many of their swords over the years, but none of them have really impressed me with their balance, handling, or aesthetics. Sure, they might be made out of some type of secret super alloy, but as for me, I don't like their designs enough to invest in one. They just don't feel right in the hand.

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Dylan Hopper




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow, thanks guys. I am impressed by the amount of replies I have gotten in such short amount of time.

As for my intentions, I plan on using this knife for all-purpose survival reasons and most possibly self-defense. I won't be in American country (where I am now) and most likely in jungle terrain. Any ways, the reason the style of blade stood out to me was because 1) I can see that the blade goes all the way through the handle (and, in fact, is the handle) so I do not have to worry about it not being a full tang and possibly breaking at the handle due to cheap construction, which I have had happen so many times before, and 2) because the flat style blade would be, in my eyes, more useful in reliant situations.

So, yes I am looking for a durable blade and I am sure this one would be durable. However, breaking is not too big of an issue with me. It's more about losing it. If I were to lose a $1,000 blade, I'd never forgive myself.

Timo: Thank you for the mention off the steel's specifications. I've seen numbers thrown around like that 9260, 5160, and more commonly I see something like 1040. I assume the higher number signifies more hardness?


David Lewis: Cold Steel has been on my mind for awhile, but sometimes I am thrown off by more commercial products. Regardless, the Cold Steel OSS & OSI: San Mai III have always been on my list.


Jean: I can't imagine ever having to use a steel weapon to defend myself against another steel weapon. At dagger and knife length, I wouldn't try to catch one any way. Still, I may be using it against harder surfaces, but I doubt much steel.


Sean: Yes, the knife is a serious matter but not that serious. I would hope I'd never have to use it against another man. Again, I don't think any knife (unless for show reasons) would be worth $1,000 USD to me, but I'm not about showcasing any way.


Matthew: As I assumed.


Tim: Thank you. I am excited to check these guys out. I always like looking at private manufactures' collections. Getting a knife custom made would be even more appealing to me.


Lee: I checked that Zombie website out, and I must say: I am actually quite interested. I normally don't go for fantasy style weapons but these actually have blade styles and even handle styles that I personally prefer. I'm not sure what the 5160 steel is exactly but sounds better than the 1040 I am used to.


Thanks again to everyone who replied. I have a lot of considerations now and couldn't be happier.
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dylan Hopper wrote:
Wow, thanks guys. I am impressed by the amount of replies I have gotten in such short amount of time.

As for my intentions, I plan on using this knife for all-purpose survival reasons and most possibly self-defense. I won't be in American country (where I am now) and most likely in jungle terrain. Any ways, the reason the style of blade stood out to me was because 1) I can see that the blade goes all the way through the handle (and, in fact, is the handle) so I do not have to worry about it not being a full tang and possibly breaking at the handle due to cheap construction, which I have had happen so many times before, and 2) because the flat style blade would be, in my eyes, more useful in reliant situations.

So, yes I am looking for a durable blade and I am sure this one would be durable. However, breaking is not too big of an issue with me. It's more about losing it. If I were to lose a $1,000 blade, I'd never forgive myself.

Timo: Thank you for the mention off the steel's specifications. I've seen numbers thrown around like that 9260, 5160, and more commonly I see something like 1040. I assume the higher number signifies more hardness?

The first two digits on a steel tell you what kind of steel it is, the second two digits tell you how much carbon it has.

1XXX steels are plain carbon steels
5XXX steels are Chromium Steels
9XXX steels are silicon manganese steels.

So for example 1040 would be a plan carbon steel with 0.4% carbon. 5160 is a Chromium containing steel with 0.6% carbon. 9260 is a silicon manganese steel with 0.6% carbon

Carbon is what makes steel, steel. In a hugely simplified way, the higher the maximum hardness that is attainable through heat treating. Hardness is important for edge retention and resisting being bent. However, harder is not always better. A super hard blade is also brittle. You have to find a balance between hardness and resilience. Other elements also have an effect, so this is very simplified.

Steel rating alone doesn't tell you much about practical hardness though, just maximum hardness. Actual hardness is far more determined by heat treat.

A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Timo Nieminen




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 6:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As above, 10xx, 51xx, 92xx are various grades of steel. That is, different steel alloys.

The most common grades in use when talking about sword steels appear to be the SAE grades. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAE_steel_grades for more.

There are other systems, too. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel_grades for an introduction.

For a non-technical summary of steels of most interest for swords and knives, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_blade_materials and follow the links therein further if you want more.

For a more detailed and technical look at steels and their properties, remaining more accessible than the really specialised books, Verhoeven's Steel Metallurgy for the Non-Metallurgist is pretty good. Part of the book can be seen in the google books preview: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=brpx-LtdCLYC . It's might be more than you're after, but does clearly talk about hardness and toughness and how they're measured.

"In addition to being efficient, all pole arms were quite nice to look at." - Cherney Berg, A hideous history of weapons, Collier 1963.
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Jean-Carle Hudon




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 6:21 pm    Post subject: good medicine         Reply with quote

I would look at this from a budget standpoint. If your going jungle, the worst threats are from disease and unclean water supplies, so I would allocate most of my ressources making sure I had all my shots and the best water purification mobile systems money can buy, Then, after that was done, I would follow Mr. Smith's advice and get me a good 70 to 150 dollar metal tool which has proven itself in rough conditions and is versatile enough to chop branches and neutralise soft targets, if need be. The latter situation is fairly rare.
Bon coeur et bon bras
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jungle blade kit would consist for me of a multi-tool knife. a stout quality lock-back folder with a 4" to 6" blade and a machete, tactical tomahawk or a Kukri.

Quote:
Jean: I can't imagine ever having to use a steel weapon to defend myself against another steel weapon. At dagger and knife length, I wouldn't try to catch one any way. Still, I may be using it against harder surfaces, but I doubt much steel.


As far as steel on steel damage or fighting against another sword this was in the context of this site for historical weapon.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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Dylan Hopper




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PostPosted: Fri 10 Aug, 2012 9:08 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for the responses. The metal coding makes sense now. As for equipment, I'm well prepared and have done this before. Just need a good knife is all.

I'm still scouring through all the links I have been given so I'll update with my decision hopefully soon.

Thanks!
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Dylan Hopper




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PostPosted: Sat 11 Aug, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

JE Sarge wrote:
I really like the Zombie Tools stuff for tactical applications. I don't care for the funky post-apocalyptic paint jobs, but the blades themselves are pretty damn nice. They have good balance, durability, and excellent cutting/thrusting properties. Their price will not break the bank, and for the price, you could have a 2-3 of the same model - which is the letter of the rules of redundancy in bad situations: having 1 = none, having 2 = 1.

As for Angel Sword, I have held many of their swords over the years, but none of them have really impressed me with their balance, handling, or aesthetics. Sure, they might be made out of some type of secret super alloy, but as for me, I don't like their designs enough to invest in one. They just don't feel right in the hand.


Hey, JE Sarge. I must have missed you reply earlier before replying to everyone's.

After Lee O'Hagan linked me to the Zombie Tools website, I must say I am rather addicted to their first three models present. The Apokotana, Zakasushi, and Tainto are amazing looking, to me. Of course, I'd never need a sword but I was impressed by watching the clip of the guy swing the full sword through 24 cans of beer.

In fact, this Tainto, while looking not much like my previous interests from Angel Sword, may be the way I go. It's a fraction of the price of the AS and looks pretty great. I believe they use 5160 steel quenched in oil. Also, it's full tang which is great but I'm still a little worried as to how well the handle would hold up. I have lost all trust for knife, dagger, and sword handles because I've never really bought a good quality knife and they always seem to either break at the handle or folders become extremely floppy at the fold.

It sounds like you've personally used a Zombie Tools weapon. How quality did the handle feel?
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