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Kenneth Enroth




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:33 am    Post subject: Strange 16th century sword         Reply with quote

What do you think the sword on the right is? I have never seen anything like it. Could it be a victorian replica? If it's period maybe a ceremonial sword. But I think it is a bit lacking in hilt ornamentation. The hilt is just plain leather and black steel. Could this be someones idea of a battlesword? I don't think the proportions would be impossible for a real sword.




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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It's an interesting design. It doesn't look terribly huge next to the sword on the left. I wonder if it's an executioners sword?
"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I guess I would tentatively identify it as an Oakeshott Type XVIIIc. Here's what EO has to say about these weapons in ROTMS:
--------
Sub-Type XVIIIC Characteristics
A broad, heavy blade, of "flattened diamond" section, the faces nearly always flat or slightly convex, generally about 34" long. The grip is long, rather like those grips of some type XVIII swords with a sharp swelling in the middle. As these big swords are hand-and-a-half weapons, the swelling is nearer to the cross than to the pommel. The pommel is generally of one of the wheel forms. The cross is often of flat ribbon-like section (style 5) but horizontally curved into a flat S shape.

General Remarks
This seems to be a characteristically Italian style of the type, corresponding to the German XVIIIb. Survivors are rare. Thereis a fine one in the Metropolitan Museum in New York,44 and a very similar one in my own collection.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Brian M




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

But this one has a fuller in the upper 1/3. Weird, I've never seen anything quite like it. The blade kinda reminds me of a giant XIa with a short fuller.

Brian M
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wish I had my copy of The Sword in the Age of Chivalry handy! Some Type XVIII's have such a fuller, though apparently those are mostly XVIIIa. Of course, not everything fits neatly into the Oakeshott typology, as he readily admitted. It's a very unusual piece, and I kind of like it.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The caption describes it as a sword belonging to "Heinrich der Fromme" (Henry the Pious), an apparent reference to Herzog Heinrich V of Saxony (1473-1541), Elector of Saxony from 1539-1541. There are many web references in German to this nobleman, but I don't know offhand of any that give his details in English.
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
It's an interesting design. It doesn't look terribly huge next to the sword on the left. I wonder if it's an executioners sword?


The caption calls it a "battle sword", but it looks pretty ceremonial to me.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What a fantastic sword!

I wonder if it survived the second world war, as it obviously was kept at the historical museum in Dresten?

And it has its original scabbard with laced belt and scabbards for byknives and a nice (bronze?) chape.
There is a Katzbalger scabbard just like this in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm.
Just fantastic.
Thank you so much for posting this!

Where did you find the picture?

I´d like to follow up on this one and see if I can find out where it is now, if it still exisit.
I need to make a sword like this, if not a reconstruction of the original, then at least something thatis inspired by it.

It is actually along the lines of a proiject I ahev dreamed about for a while now. I was going to do something vaguely historical, but with some fantastic elements. It seems my ideas of the fantastical was not so far removed from reality after all...

Again, what a fantastic sword!!!
Could you possibly manage to produce a pic with higher resolution?
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
What a fantastic sword!

I wonder if it survived the second world war, as it obviously was kept at the historical museum in Dresten?

And it has its original scabbard with laced belt and scabbards for byknives and a nice (bronze?) chape.
There is a Katzbalger scabbard just like this in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm.
Just fantastic.
Thank you so much for posting this!

Where did you find the picture?

I´d like to follow up on this one and see if I can find out where it is now, if it still exisit.
I need to make a sword like this, if not a reconstruction of the original, then at least something thatis inspired by it.

It is actually along the lines of a proiject I ahev dreamed about for a while now. I was going to do something vaguely historical, but with some fantastic elements. It seems my ideas of the fantastical was not so far removed from reality after all...

Again, what a fantastic sword!!!
Could you possibly manage to produce a pic with higher resolution?


Peter,

If you're refering to the project we discussed recently, I think this basic design would fit quite well within that theme.

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:

I wonder if it survived the second world war, as it obviously was kept at the historical museum in Dresten?


If it survived the 1945 bombing, it probably was taken by the Russians during the occupation. Who knows, it may be in the basement of a Moscow museum right now.
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

With regards to the very business-like scabbard, I do not think this is a ceremonial sword. With a scabbard like this it was meant to be worn in the field. A ceremonial sword would have a scabbard that is much more ornate and usdually without a belt attached.
A sword for a leader, that is a given, and as part of that it follows it would be made to also look imposing. Still I think that just because the blade is unusually broad, it would well have pretty nice handling characteristics.
I would guess the blade i very thin.

I would say the sword is of type XXII.
Look at page 219 in "Records": XXII.1 the Sword of Freidrich III. Italian blade but South German hilt.

Not too different, even though it is not quite as wide.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Browsing through Dresden listings online (try www.dresden.de) I found reference to collections that have resided in the city since the 1920s. These collections would most likely have at least been moved underground during the war, but it sounds as if some of them are intact and still in Dresden. So, maybe there's a chance....
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

And here's a link to all the Dresden museums, for those of you who speak German and want to starting fishing for this beauty:

http://www.dresden.de/index.html?node=1471

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
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Kenneth Enroth




Location: Finland
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
What a fantastic sword!

I wonder if it survived the second world war, as it obviously was kept at the historical museum in Dresten?

And it has its original scabbard with laced belt and scabbards for byknives and a nice (bronze?) chape.
There is a Katzbalger scabbard just like this in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm.
Just fantastic.
Thank you so much for posting this!

Where did you find the picture?

I´d like to follow up on this one and see if I can find out where it is now, if it still exisit.
I need to make a sword like this, if not a reconstruction of the original, then at least something thatis inspired by it.

It is actually along the lines of a proiject I ahev dreamed about for a while now. I was going to do something vaguely historical, but with some fantastic elements. It seems my ideas of the fantastical was not so far removed from reality after all...

Again, what a fantastic sword!!!
Could you possibly manage to produce a pic with higher resolution?


If you PM me your E-mail address I can send you a high resolution image (330 kb). I found it on a german site. Unfortunately I've lost the link. But it is somewhere on the arador discussion forums. I'll see if I can find it again. It had loads of similar old pics of weapons and armour, some of which were lost in the war.

It's a very cool sword I agree. A replica would be very interesting.
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Steve Fabert





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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's a portrait of the sword's nominal owner, Heinrich V of Saxony. He looks rather warlike. Too bad the sword's details are obscured in this picture.


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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:27 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
And here's a link to all the Dresden museums, for those of you who speak German and want to starting fishing for this beauty:

http://www.dresden.de/index.html?node=1471


Thanks!
I´ve sent a message to the armoury.
Keep your fingers crosed that the sword is still there somewhere and in reasonable shape.
If so I might try to get access to this sword next time I am in Germany (for the Solingen Knifemakers Show in may).
Exiting!
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Steve Fabert wrote:
Here's a portrait of the sword's nominal owner, Heinrich V of Saxony. He looks rather warlike. Too bad the sword's details are obscured in this picture.


Ahh,
interesting war-knife! Note the rivets in the grip and the pommel-cap.
He would have had several swords...
Too bad they did not paint the broad bladed war sword...
Cry
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Peter Johnsson
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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrick Kelly wrote:
Peter Johnsson wrote:
What a fantastic sword!

I wonder if it survived the second world war, as it obviously was kept at the historical museum in Dresten?

And it has its original scabbard with laced belt and scabbards for byknives and a nice (bronze?) chape.
There is a Katzbalger scabbard just like this in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm.
Just fantastic.
Thank you so much for posting this!

Where did you find the picture?

I´d like to follow up on this one and see if I can find out where it is now, if it still exisit.
I need to make a sword like this, if not a reconstruction of the original, then at least something thatis inspired by it.

It is actually along the lines of a proiject I ahev dreamed about for a while now. I was going to do something vaguely historical, but with some fantastic elements. It seems my ideas of the fantastical was not so far removed from reality after all...

Again, what a fantastic sword!!!
Could you possibly manage to produce a pic with higher resolution?


Peter,

If you're refering to the project we discussed recently, I think this basic design would fit quite well within that theme.


Yes, this is a Vorpal Sword for sure!
...Beware the Jabberwock my Son!!! Cool Big Grin
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Patrick Kelly




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter Johnsson wrote:
Yes, this is a Vorpal Sword for sure!
...Beware the Jabberwock my Son!!! Cool Big Grin


I can't go into the woods. I'm always sticking myself on the mimmsy boragoves Eek!

"In valor there is hope.".................. Tacitus
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Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom




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PostPosted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Big Grin It are still there, in Rüstkammer Dresden
http://bildarchiv.kunstbibliothek-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp



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