Strange 16th century sword -- myArmoury.com

Kenneth Enroth · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:33 am Post subject: Strange 16th century sword

What do you think the sword on the right is? I have never seen anything like it. Could it be a victorian replica? If it's period maybe a ceremonial sword. But I think it is a bit lacking in hilt ornamentation. The hilt is just plain leather and black steel. Could this be someones idea of a battlesword? I don't think the proportions would be impossible for a real sword.

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:47 am Post subject:

It's an interesting design. It doesn't look terribly huge next to the sword on the left. I wonder if it's an executioners sword?

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 10:47 am Post subject:

I guess I would tentatively identify it as an Oakeshott Type XVIIIc. Here's what EO has to say about these weapons in ROTMS:
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Sub-Type XVIIIC Characteristics
A broad, heavy blade, of "flattened diamond" section, the faces nearly always flat or slightly convex, generally about 34" long. The grip is long, rather like those grips of some type XVIII swords with a sharp swelling in the middle. As these big swords are hand-and-a-half weapons, the swelling is nearer to the cross than to the pommel. The pommel is generally of one of the wheel forms. The cross is often of flat ribbon-like section (style 5) but horizontally curved into a flat S shape.

General Remarks
This seems to be a characteristically Italian style of the type, corresponding to the German XVIIIb. Survivors are rare. Thereis a fine one in the Metropolitan Museum in New York,44 and a very similar one in my own collection.

Brian M · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:08 am Post subject:

But this one has a fuller in the upper 1/3. Weird, I've never seen anything quite like it. The blade kinda reminds me of a giant XIa with a short fuller.

Brian M

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:22 am Post subject:

I wish I had my copy of The Sword in the Age of Chivalry handy! Some Type XVIII's have such a fuller, though apparently those are mostly XVIIIa. Of course, not everything fits neatly into the Oakeshott typology, as he readily admitted. It's a very unusual piece, and I kind of like it.

Steve Fabert · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:26 am Post subject:

The caption describes it as a sword belonging to "Heinrich der Fromme" (Henry the Pious), an apparent reference to Herzog Heinrich V of Saxony (1473-1541), Elector of Saxony from 1539-1541. There are many web references in German to this nobleman, but I don't know offhand of any that give his details in English.

Steve Fabert · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:29 am Post subject:

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

What a fantastic sword!

I wonder if it survived the second world war, as it obviously was kept at the historical museum in Dresten?

And it has its original scabbard with laced belt and scabbards for byknives and a nice (bronze?) chape.
There is a Katzbalger scabbard just like this in the Royal Armouries in Stockholm.
Just fantastic.
Thank you so much for posting this!

Where did you find the picture?

I´d like to follow up on this one and see if I can find out where it is now, if it still exisit.
I need to make a sword like this, if not a reconstruction of the original, then at least something thatis inspired by it.

It is actually along the lines of a proiject I ahev dreamed about for a while now. I was going to do something vaguely historical, but with some fantastic elements. It seems my ideas of the fantastical was not so far removed from reality after all...

Again, what a fantastic sword!!!
Could you possibly manage to produce a pic with higher resolution?

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:32 am Post subject:

Steve Fabert · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:37 am Post subject:

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

With regards to the very business-like scabbard, I do not think this is a ceremonial sword. With a scabbard like this it was meant to be worn in the field. A ceremonial sword would have a scabbard that is much more ornate and usdually without a belt attached.
A sword for a leader, that is a given, and as part of that it follows it would be made to also look imposing. Still I think that just because the blade is unusually broad, it would well have pretty nice handling characteristics.
I would guess the blade i very thin.

I would say the sword is of type XXII.
Look at page 219 in "Records": XXII.1 the Sword of Freidrich III. Italian blade but South German hilt.

Not too different, even though it is not quite as wide.

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:43 am Post subject:

Browsing through Dresden listings online (try www.dresden.de) I found reference to collections that have resided in the city since the 1920s. These collections would most likely have at least been moved underground during the war, but it sounds as if some of them are intact and still in Dresden. So, maybe there's a chance....

Sean Flynt · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 11:49 am Post subject:

And here's a link to all the Dresden museums, for those of you who speak German and want to starting fishing for this beauty:

http://www.dresden.de/index.html?node=1471

Kenneth Enroth · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:12 pm Post subject:

Steve Fabert · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:27 pm Post subject:

Here's a portrait of the sword's nominal owner, Heinrich V of Saxony. He looks rather warlike. Too bad the sword's details are obscured in this picture.

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Peter Johnsson · Industry Professional

Patrick Kelly · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 12:51 pm Post subject:

Patrik Erik Lars Lindblom · Posted: Thu 11 Nov, 2004 1:16 pm Post subject:

It are still there, in Rüstkammer Dresden
http://bildarchiv.kunstbibliothek-dresden.de/skddb/Start.jsp