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Corey Skriletz




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Thu 10 May, 2012 10:58 pm    Post subject: Leather gauntlets on Normans         Reply with quote

For my late Norman kit, I have all the necessary pieces of armor, minus the hand wear. I've read most often that Norman knights used maille mittens, but in a lot of non historical interpretations of them, I see leather gauntlets. Buying a pair of brown welder's gauntlets would be a lot cheaper than buying maille mittens, but I've never seen any pictoral evidence supporting leather gauntlets on a 12th century Norman knight. So would that be historically accurate or nay?
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Robin Smith




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PostPosted: Fri 11 May, 2012 11:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You see leather because maille mittens don't show up until the second half of the 12th C. So if you are doing Conquest, early Crusades, or early Anglo-Norman then maille mittens would be out of place. Of course for safety reasons you have to have something, but unless you are doing late 12th, leather is the way to go.
A furore Normannorum libera nos, Domine
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Henrik Granlid




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Fri 11 May, 2012 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

What kind of leather gauntlets would be my followup to that question, are we looking at anything in particular?

I personally have rather small hands, as such, welding gauntlets are simply WAY too large for my hands (they're 10s or even larger, I have 7.5)
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Corey Skriletz




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 6:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well they certainly aren't tight on my hands, but they fit over the maille sleeves perfectly, and I've used them so much that I have absolutely no problem moving my fingers appropriately in them. These are the gloves I've been using.

http://www.harborfreight.com/welding-gloves-39664.html
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

We are talking about leather gloves here right.

RPM
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
Joined: 23 Mar 2008

Posts: 490

PostPosted: Sat 12 May, 2012 11:23 am    Post subject: Re: Leather gauntlets on Normans         Reply with quote

Corey Skriletz wrote:
For my late Norman kit, I have all the necessary pieces of armor, minus the hand wear. I've read most often that Norman knights used maille mittens, but in a lot of non historical interpretations of them, I see leather gauntlets. Buying a pair of brown welder's gauntlets would be a lot cheaper than buying maille mittens, but I've never seen any pictoral evidence supporting leather gauntlets on a 12th century Norman knight. So would that be historically accurate or nay?

As a rule, if you see reenactors wearing hard leather gauntlets its a safety requirement for mock fights with blunt steel weapons. Many historical warriors weren't too concerned with hand protection, or fought in a way which reduced the risk, but today getting a broken hand is a bad idea. There may be a few exceptions, but most of the time its a modern safety measure.
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Corey Skriletz




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall: I don't know what RPM means, but yes, I'm talking about leather welding gloves like the pair I posted a link to.

Sean: I'm not referring to the hard leather hand protection one would see on those who do full-combat reenactment. I'm just referring to leather gloves that would aid in gripping the weapon.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012 6:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If you want a historical glove, you should try for something akin to the riding gloves worn in the I.33 manuscript.
On top of my head I do not remember if there are sources on them in the 12th century, but there are plenty of depictions in the 13th.
Welders gloves are to bulky and rough; riding gloves where luxury items.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012 7:42 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corey,

RPM, Randall Porter Moffett- it is my name.
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Corey Skriletz




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012 7:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Elling: So more of a smooth, tighter glove like this?

http://www.museumreplicas.com/p-49-leather-gauntlets.aspx

Randall: Oh I see.
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Roberto Banfi




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PostPosted: Mon 14 May, 2012 11:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

you might want to consider also something like these

http://www.medieval-market.com/details.php?id_towar=289&s=1

basically a pair of leather gloves covered with gambeson/aketon fabric

possibly a base for adding maille covering
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Brian Robson





Joined: 19 Feb 2007

Posts: 185

PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

If it's not for safety purposes, why not go for what we definately know is authentic for the period and simply keep the hands bare?

Gives a better 'feel' for the weapon too imho.

Hard to say though without knowing the purpose for you getting the kit together. - If for an accurate representation, no gloves is good - for steel re-enactment combat, you'll need thick leather hand protection as a concession to historical accuracy for safety reasons. I personally can't think of any reasons you would want to look at modern gloves as part of historical kit if not for safety reasons.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 5:09 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corey: Yes, closer. Yet those gloves still look rather modern. The originals as seen in I.33:


Note that they are depicted white (lambskin). Most commonly, they are seen on civilian noblemen, but since these are the same people as armed noblemen, wearing them with your military gear i not far fetched.



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EdDude.jpg
A gentleman from "life of Edward the Confessor" (1250)

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3002493448_955d2439e5_b.jpg
Me wearing my dandy-gloves with my armour.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Randall Moffett




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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 5:44 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like leather driver gloves (not driving gloves by the way, driver gloves come from the gloves used for cattle and farm work from what I gather).

They tend to be made of good solid leather. Make sure you find the kind without elastic, and if you do make sure you can remove the elastic with ease before buying them. The easy ones to use do not have elastic but they have either a buckle or the like to close the end. You can simply cut this off and you are good.

I still sometimes use welding gaunts if I know they will take some abuse alone as they have a bit more padding on the outside. You can remove this quite easy as well f you need a thinner gauntlet.

RPM
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Sean Manning




Location: Austria
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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 8:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corey Skriletz wrote:
Randall: I don't know what RPM means, but yes, I'm talking about leather welding gloves like the pair I posted a link to.

Sean: I'm not referring to the hard leather hand protection one would see on those who do full-combat reenactment. I'm just referring to leather gloves that would aid in gripping the weapon.

I see. I was confused because you were talking about "armour" and "gauntlets" and soft, unpadded leather gloves aren't very good at either.
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 1:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

These in I33 look a lot like the civli & Indian war american cavalry gloves. Maybe civil war re-enactors use something similar that's being sold somewhere on the web?
"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here are some...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B006Z8D5AI/ref=asc_d...nkCode=asn

https://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-745-civil-war-union-enlisted-mens-white-leather-gauntlets.aspx

https://www.atlantacutlery.com/p-2035-civil-war-confederate-enlisted-mens-cream-leather-gauntlets.aspx

And a pattern if you want to make your own...

http://www.amazon.com/Pattern-Studio-Gala-Gau...amp;sr=8-1

Better pattern selection.Just type "gauntlets" in the search box...

http://www.patternsoftime.com/search.asp

"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

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Corey Skriletz




Location: United States
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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 5:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks to all of you for your recommendations and help. I have considered going bare-handed, but the maille hauberk I've been using has (for lack of a better word that I can think of) wizard sleeves, which hang down. To remedy this, I bound the sleeves at my wrist with a leather strap. I want a gauntlet to wear over it to hide the bunched-up sleeve, which in my opinion looks very bad. I'm trying to keep the kit aesthetically pleasing, while retaining some measure of historical accuracy.

The driver gloves look great for work around the house, but I can't find any with a cuff big-enough form y purposes.

The three-fingered gloves look very cool. I think they have something like that in the Maciejowski Bible. It's very cool that they're made of Linen, but again I fear the cuff just isn't long enough.

I think the best way to go would be the white lamb-skins that Elling pointed out. I had thought about Civil War gauntlets, but I feel like the designs on the back of the hand look too modern. Does it look to anyone else that the designs could be unstitched?

Just to be sure, the earliest depiction of fingered maille gauntlets wasn't until fifty years later in the Maciejowski Bible, right?

Thanks again, to everyone for your help.
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Corey Skriletz




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PostPosted: Tue 15 May, 2012 6:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By the way, Elling, that's a great kit!
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Wed 16 May, 2012 3:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Corey Skriletz wrote:
I have considered going bare-handed, but the maille hauberk I've been using has (for lack of a better word that I can think of) wizard sleeves, which hang down. To remedy this, I bound the sleeves at my wrist with a leather strap. I want a gauntlet to wear over it to hide the bunched-up sleeve, which in my opinion looks very bad.


Why don't you just tailor your maille sleeves then? It's not hard to do, even on riveted maille. Getting rid of wizard sleeves a.k.a. batwings makes a hauberk look ten times as good IMHO.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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