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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > 6 in 1 maille Reply to topic
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Jan J. Gahy




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 15 Aug 2010

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 4:22 am    Post subject: 6 in 1 maille         Reply with quote

6 in 1 pattern maille or as we call it in Slovakia "the kings pattern".
Does anyone have this kind of pattern in full maille? Is there any historical evidence of this kind of maille or using this pattern? I once heard that these pattern could be used for maille coif because of its density of the rings for better head protection.
Thanks for answer in advance.
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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Reading list: 5 books

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There is a mail matle at the British Museum which has some 6 in 1 parts.

RPM
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
Joined: 08 Dec 2004

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I vaguely recall a middle eastern haubergeon that was made entirely of 6-in-1. I trusted the source at the time but can't remember it atm.
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Eric S




Location: new orleans
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 4:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The Japanese used 6 in 1 mail.





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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 8:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That's not what is referred to as "kings pattern". The weave in question looks exactly like 4-in-1 except when up close.
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Glen A Cleeton




Location: Nipmuc USA
Joined: 21 Aug 2003

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PostPosted: Thu 29 Mar, 2012 9:48 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://artofchainmail.com/patterns/european/basic1in6.html
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 1:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i made an experimental batch of 6 in one ouf of quite large key rings and the 6 in 1 had some issues with flexibility comapred to the 4 in one, yes im aware that key rings big enough to go onto ones inex finger, nickel plated no less, would replicate much smaller diameter historical maile.

so i could imagine someone making a maile haubers that has sections that are of a 6 in one weave, like the shoulders or maybe the elbow, or the back of the hands/ wrist,

in the case of byzantine, russian and persian helmets with full face maile curtains, a bit moresolid maile wouldnt go amiss.
(cataphract helmets, i forget which era, often had at LEAST a double maile screen, some had three layers (at this point, that much maile will start behaving like solid plate, almost)


but not a WHOLE hauberk/haubergon of maile, however a 6 in 1 byrnie i.e a shirt of maile would be managable, and a short, almost a vest of 6 in one maile over a normal 4 in one hauberk would maybe provide the extra protection of vital points one would need , but not all the time.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I made a whole haubergeon out of 6-in-1. I had to use finer wire than I would have with 4-in-1 but there were no flexibility issues at all.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 2:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The above photo is a good example of how crazy you have to get with small diameters and multiple links for butted mail to provide any kind of protection against points.
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Jan J. Gahy




Location: Slovakia
Joined: 15 Aug 2010

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 9:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for answers

That Japanese armour looks amazing, maybe I ll try to do something similar. Happy I saw those triangular patterns before but not with multiple rings.

About 6 in 1 pattern: I was recently trying this pattern and i was surprised by its thickness and flexibility, thats why i was asking question about historical evidences of this pattern because Im thinking about making the whole shirt from it. Here are photos of what i did (those are only butted rings) and comparison with 4 in 1 pattern. (sorry for mobile phone quality:/)

Dan: would you please post picture of that 6 in 1 haubergeon? Im really curious how it looks like when its done.



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comparison [ Download ]
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Fri 30 Mar, 2012 1:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I sold my entire armour collection a few years ago to pay for the Dendra Panoply. I'm slowly building up my collection again but most of my replicas and reconstructions are from the Bronze Age now.
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Adam Bohnstengel




Location: Spring, TX
Joined: 24 Aug 2011

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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 9:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
I made a whole haubergeon out of 6-in-1. I had to use finer wire than I would have with 4-in-1 but there were no flexibility issues at all.

What was the diameter that you used? Was it riveted, or butted?

Violence is the supreme authority from which all other authority is derived.
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 1:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen a few museum piece neck protectors made with 6 in 1 pattern. Never seen an entire maille in 6 in 1 though, but that doesn't mean they never existed or isn't out there in some museum.

Every tailored maille woudl have some small areas with it as expanding and shrinking the weave results in some rings collecting 6 or even as much as 8 rings.
I know from experimenting a lot with butted 6 in 1 mailles some 15-20 years ago that it got heavier and a little less flexible. Not unmanageable, but they are a bit harder to tailor though.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:06 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
I've seen a few museum piece neck protectors made with 6 in 1 pattern.

A FEW? Which ones? As far as I am aware the BM example is the only one that has been confirmed 6-in-1.
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Dan Howard




Location: Maitland, NSW, Australia
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Adam Bohnstengel wrote:
What was the diameter that you used? Was it riveted, or butted?

Diameter was c.10mm. Wire was 0.8-0.9mm. I made it from butted links. I wasn't interested in historical accuracy, I just wanted to see how the weave functioned and butted links was the quickest way to assemble a shirt. I've also made a collar from 6-in-1 that was almost rigid. So, just like 4-in-1, the amount of movement in the weave depends on the wire diameter and link size, not the type of weave used.

The question is whether 6-in-1 can provide better protection than 4-in-1 if the two samples are made with the same degree of flexibility. Keep in mind that 6-in-1 uses twice as many links as 4-in-1 so the weight should be doubled. However, if you want the same link size as 4-in-1 then you need to reduce the thickness of the wire so the final weight will not be doubled, but it will be heavier. Is that weight increase worth the additional protection?


Last edited by Dan Howard on Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 2:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan Howard wrote:
Johan Gemvik wrote:
I've seen a few museum piece neck protectors made with 6 in 1 pattern.

A FEW? Which ones? As far as I am aware the BM example is the only one that has been confirmed 6-in-1.


You're probably right and I may only have seen that one. Sorry to tease like that.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 3:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan,

I think Russ Mitchel found another example in Hungary of 6 in 1 mail. I thought I had pictures of what he posted but could not find it there or on the AA..

RPM
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Luka Borscak




Location: Croatia
Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Is this the one from BM? I didn't know it's 6 in 1 when I saw it, I thought the rings are just thicker and maybe smaller in the upper part...

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Julio Junco





Joined: 08 Jan 2006

Posts: 16

PostPosted: Sun 01 Apr, 2012 4:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I made 6 x 1 mail nine years ago. It was absolutely flexible, and more like weave, like real clothing.
It was 1'3 wire, stainless steel, piano wire. Really hard. And with 8-8'5 mm internal diameter.It weighs 9'8 kgs.
Not historic, but it was very very nice. And opaque, you donīt see nothing back of the mail.
Julio



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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Mon 02 Apr, 2012 3:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Luka Borscak wrote:
Is this the one from BM? I didn't know it's 6 in 1 when I saw it, I thought the rings are just thicker and maybe smaller in the upper part...



That's not the one I was talking about at least. So maybe there are more than one out there.
The one I saw had one tounge at the front and straight edges on the sides and it wasn't gilded. I can't for the life of me remember where I saw it though.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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