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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Wed 07 Mar, 2012 9:25 pm    Post subject: praetorian style helmet reproduction         Reply with quote

as the name implies were talking about a kind of helmet made by the indian manufacturer daniyal stelcrafts which THEY call a roman attic helmet, asserting that this design is associated with the preatorian guard, and while this style is unusual

the page is correct in that a helmet looking like that DOES have basis in art and is associated in said art, with the praetorian guard.


http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...tic+Helmet

what do you guys think, mattew amt, i know you have a version of this helmet, one likely used in gladiator, on your list of 'what never to buy' on the legioXX website
http://www.larp.com/legioxx/bad.html
you mention its the worst attic style helmet youve ever seen, does that mean that kind of roman helmet with the striangular browplate is reasonably 'kosher'
and would you maybe rate this design as any better in terms of authenticity?

the same manufacturer also has a decent replica of the byzantine 'skylitzes helmet' (though i was told that it would be best if i smoothed down the rivets to make it better suited for combat..



 Attachment: 45.77 KB
DS21.jpg
Roman Brass Attic Helmet

 Attachment: 51.59 KB
officers-and-soldiers-of-the-praetorian-guard-relief-2nd-century-ad-roman.jpg
The marble bas relief the helmet is most likely based on

Officers andnSoldiers of the Praetorian Guard Relief

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Matthew Amt




Location: Laurel, MD, USA
Joined: 17 Sep 2003

Posts: 1,315

PostPosted: Thu 08 Mar, 2012 7:46 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hoo, boy! Well, for starters, no, I do not think that helmet you show is a decent reproduction. Nice cheekpieces, but the brow reinforce is in the wrong place and just looks wrong. Too plain, too wide. The helmet bowl is badly shaped at the back, too straight and not enough flair at the bottom.

Next, as the caption you have on the Louvre Relief photo indicates, that sculpture depicts OFFICERS. I'm still not convinced that the Attic helmet was worn by *troops* in the Praetorian cohorts. It's part of the classic Hellenistic aristocratic officer's regalia. Also note that this relief has been HEAVILY restored in recent times--all 3 of the foreground heads are replacements (though obviously copied from the background), and the whole middle third of the left-hand man is a bad fill-in.

The Attic helmet is a bit of an enigma. Earlier in the Republic it was a very common style amongst Romans and other Italian warriors of any rank, and quite a few survive. By the time of the Empire, there are Attic features on a number of helmets, including the Italic A from Herculaneum, and several cavalry helmets. Sometimes you'll see the peaked browplate, sometimes just embossed lines in that shape on the skull. Sometimes you'll see the low, short neckguard. We do not often see such narrow and pointy cheekpieces, though the Italic A ones are similar, and the narrowness is often believed to be an artistic feature to avoid hiding the face. There are some originals on these pages:

http://www.legionsix.org/Equipment/Real%20Gea...ar%202.htm
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Helmet.html

But there are only a few surviving bits and pieces that *might* be from the Attic helmet of an Imperial officer, so we're left with interpreting artwork. By now you should have a pretty good idea in general of what happens when different people interpret the same artwork!

That said, I have seen a few reconstructions of Attic officers' helmets that I would consider "good", but since it's not a subject I have studied in any depth, I couldn't tell you which manufacturers or craftsmen produced them. Even with a really good custom armorer, a lot depends on what the customer wants! And if the customer is determined to have a "Praetorian" Attic helmet, well...

There is actually good evidence that Praetorians on duty in Rome wore tunics and togas, with swords underneath the toga! No armor or helmet at all. On campaign, naturally they had armor and helmets, but Trajan's Column shows them looking pretty much like regular legionaries.

Does that start to answer your questions? Vale,

Matthew
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William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,436

PostPosted: Wed 04 Apr, 2012 12:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Amt wrote:
Hoo, boy! Well, for starters, no, I do not think that helmet you show is a decent reproduction. Nice cheekpieces, but the brow reinforce is in the wrong place and just looks wrong. Too plain, too wide. The helmet bowl is badly shaped at the back, too straight and not enough flair at the bottom.

Next, as the caption you have on the Louvre Relief photo indicates, that sculpture depicts OFFICERS. I'm still not convinced that the Attic helmet was worn by *troops* in the Praetorian cohorts. It's part of the classic Hellenistic aristocratic officer's regalia. Also note that this relief has been HEAVILY restored in recent times--all 3 of the foreground heads are replacements (though obviously copied from the background), and the whole middle third of the left-hand man is a bad fill-in.

The Attic helmet is a bit of an enigma. Earlier in the Republic it was a very common style amongst Romans and other Italian warriors of any rank, and quite a few survive. By the time of the Empire, there are Attic features on a number of helmets, including the Italic A from Herculaneum, and several cavalry helmets. Sometimes you'll see the peaked browplate, sometimes just embossed lines in that shape on the skull. Sometimes you'll see the low, short neckguard. We do not often see such narrow and pointy cheekpieces, though the Italic A ones are similar, and the narrowness is often believed to be an artistic feature to avoid hiding the face. There are some originals on these pages:

http://www.legionsix.org/Equipment/Real%20Gea...ar%202.htm
http://www.romancoins.info/MilitaryEquipment-Helmet.html

But there are only a few surviving bits and pieces that *might* be from the Attic helmet of an Imperial officer, so we're left with interpreting artwork. By now you should have a pretty good idea in general of what happens when different people interpret the same artwork!

That said, I have seen a few reconstructions of Attic officers' helmets that I would consider "good", but since it's not a subject I have studied in any depth, I couldn't tell you which manufacturers or craftsmen produced them. Even with a really good custom armorer, a lot depends on what the customer wants! And if the customer is determined to have a "Praetorian" Attic helmet, well...

There is actually good evidence that Praetorians on duty in Rome wore tunics and togas, with swords underneath the toga! No armor or helmet at all. On campaign, naturally they had armor and helmets, but Trajan's Column shows them looking pretty much like regular legionaries.

Does that start to answer your questions? Vale,

Matthew

pretty much,
the reason i ask is that one of your helmets to avoid on the legioXX page is an attic style helm... so i wasnt too sure if the one i found was decent in terms of history... in terms of itts quality as a HELMET i wasnt as concerned with, and i figured would likely have a few flaws i was mostly wondering about the precedence of that style of helmet with the ponted browplate.
since its so uncommon..
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