Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > A Quartet of ”Droopy” Blades… Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 11 Jan, 2012 6:02 am    Post subject: A Quartet of ”Droopy” Blades…         Reply with quote

Hi all,
The Helsinki Knife Show is now past and I can breathe a little more freely… Once again the show was a great experience, but being part of the organizing team, I got a little stressed about everything.

For some odd reason last year turned out to be a year of ”drooping” ie. downwards curving blades. These four pieces shown here were made during late summer and autumn, but I had already done three droopy blades before that – one of them was actually shown in a thread here in the forum not long ago. The last one I worked on until the very last moment to get it ready (enough) for the show.

The first one is a somewhat modified version of the kopis in the Etruscan museum in Rome. Unlike the original this has a powerful convex ground blade and a guard made of brass, otherwise the hilt has the typical full-tang construction with ebony slabs fixed in place by brass pins. I made the hilt rather 3-d in shape, but not quite so drastic as the later yataghans.
Overall length of the sword is 74cm, length of the blade 59cm, weight 1,054kg and point of balance is 14,3cm from the guard.

The second one is my version of a “battle-kukri”, it is loosely based on an original I was able to study last summer and on some pictorial material. The blade is forged from high carbon steel and has been etched so that a wootz-kind of pattern shows on the surface – the pattern is so neat that I decided to leave all fullers & such off of the blade. The hilt is of brass and wenge with some decoration on all parts. The decorative ridge on the grip is actually very necessary when swinging the sword, as it locks the hilt firmly into the users hand. I made an ugly but sturdy sheath for this one using lined moose leather…
The overall length of the kukri is 66cm, length of the blade 52,5cm, blade thickness 8mm, weight 0,835kg, pob. is 14,3 from the guard.

Third sword is one of those things that I have grown to love – a falcata. I think that I managed to put quite a few of the neat characteristics of the historical swords into this one. It is very light and Very Fast cutter, with the point nice an low for stabbing. The curved fullers were rather difficult to make, but what would a falcata be without fullers? The etched decorations around the fullers were something that just had to be tried. The blade is forged from 0,75% carbon steel, the hilt is of bronze and hardwood. The sword has a double-layered leather scabbard with simple brass suspension rings.
Overall length is 51,5cm, blade 39,5, weight 0,608kg and point of balance 8cm from the guard.

I was able to do some test cutting with the falcata and also try out the battle-kukri blade before it was hafted. The falcata is so light and fast that it goes through the mats like they event weren’t there. The shape of the hilt makes it very safe and ergonomic to use – you simply cannot drop it! The kukri blade was a scary one, reverse backhand cuts that usually lift the mat from its stand went cleanly trough…

These three ones are on the free market, so anybody interested please let me know. It will be a while before I can make this sort of weapons again…

In a way, the three earlier swords lead the way to the fourth one – which is an Indian sosun pattah-sword with mogul-style hilt. The sword is a custom order that I took on as I have wanted to make such a piece for so long.
The blade is one of the most demanding ones I have made so far – T-cross section alone is a bit tricky to make- the forward curve of the blade makes it somewhat more trickier. It is forged from the same high-carbon steel as the kukri, but with finer hand finish and with the pattern showing in a more subtle way.

The hilt is all damascus steel, forgewelded to shape. The actual hilt is formed from four parts forgewelded together with a channel for the tang in the middle. The disk pommel, “pommel-cup” and the finial knob are separate pieces, also of damascus steel. There is very little extra decoration on the hilt, somehow I felt it did not need it… I am still considering of doing an etched decoration on the blade close to the hilt though.

The dimensions of the sword follow historical swords quite closely, but the hilt is somewhat larger to accommodate an european-sized hand. Mainly due to this, the sword is somewhat heavier than the originals.
The overall length of the sosun pattah is 81,3cm, blade length is 66,6cm, weight 1,285kg and point of balance 13 cm from the root of the hilt.

I’m sorry about the quality of some of the pictures, but during autumn & winter time we have very little light here and the weather conditions usually do not make it any easier… Anyway, I hope you enjoy the pics.

Cheers,
JT

…As a whining editorial note, -I just do not get it how some can put dozen pictures in a post all showing and I cannot manage four pics without half of them shrink into “attachments”…



 Attachment: 83.16 KB
4 SP 30468bp.JPG
All damascus hilt of the sosun pattah

 Attachment: 80.63 KB
2 sword trio30358bp.JPG
The hilts of the kopis, kukri and falcata

 Attachment: 109.96 KB
Kopis, "battle-kukri" & falcata [ Download ]

 Attachment: 126.13 KB
Sosun pattah-sword [ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Matthew G.M. Korenkiewicz




Location: Michigan, USA
Joined: 08 Mar 2004
Reading list: 3 books

Posts: 852

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 11 Jan, 2012 6:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is REALLY nice and very interesting to see different historically oriented
swords / knives such as these. And good to know that there are craftsmen like
yourself who are willing and able to re-create and ressurect them, even if when
it doesn't happen that often ...

... and by the way, the pics are just dandy ! B-)
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,884

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Wed 11 Jan, 2012 8:23 am    Post subject: Re: A Quartet of ”Droopy” Blades…         Reply with quote

Jarno-T. Pälikkö wrote:


…As a whining editorial note, -I just do not get it how some can put dozen pictures in a post all showing and I cannot manage four pics without half of them shrink into “attachments”…


Those are absolutely gorgeous! As for the images--an image can be below the maximum file size and still be too large in its dimensions to show. I always keep my images under 700 pixels on the long side and rarely have a problem.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 769

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 11 Jan, 2012 5:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hyva!
Incredible work! All of them are awesome, but I especially enjoy seeing your interpretations of the Kopis/Macharia/Falcata family.

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 2:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dear Sirs, thank you very much for your comments!
-And Sean, thanks for the tip! I'll try the theory in practice and show some more pictures of the swords...

Here's pictures of the kopis and the sosun pattah and of the falcata with its scabbard. Also a picture of the hilts of the trio, hopefully the details show a little better with this one.

-In a way I find it a bit scary the way I am "retarding" and going further and further back in history with my interests, I hope I won't end up doing flint knapping pieces in a year of two... (Well yes, stone axes are so very cool pieces!)

Anyway, this interest towards weapons of the classical world is a relatively new thing for me, whereas my interest in Indian weaponry goes back a decade or two... I remember visiting Wallace Collection for the first time and being completely flabbergasted by the weapons of the oriental arms collection. Few years later, after being able to handle a few tulwars and other such arms I tried for the first time to make a sabre, -it is that silly tulwar still showing on my web pages... (http://www.kp-art.fi/jt/index.html) -I did a few cuts with it on a mat recently and it turned out not to be so silly after all...

Cheers again,
JT



 Attachment: 120.9 KB
6 SP 30484bp2.jpg
Sosun pattah from the other side

 Attachment: 64.75 KB
8 kopis 30301bo.jpg
The kopis from the other side

 Attachment: 73.38 KB
9 hh falcata 20638bo.jpg
Falcata & scabbard

 Attachment: 174.29 KB
5 sword trio 30347bp2.jpg
Three hilts
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
Joined: 07 Dec 2009
Likes: 13 pages
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 193

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 5:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Superb, JT!
Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

www.hippeis.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Matthew Stagmer
Industry Professional



Location: Maryland, USA
Joined: 23 Jan 2008

Posts: 473

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 1:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Absolutly amazing work. I am in love with the Sosun pattah. Thanks for sharing!
Matthew Stagmer
Maker of custom and production weaponry
www.BaltimoreKnife.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

All very great looking work. Big Grin Cool

Although, with the title I thought the subject matter would be too thin blades that droop too much when the blade is held sideways. Wink Laughing Out Loud

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Fri 13 Jan, 2012 4:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you for your comments, gentlemen,

I must confess that for me the sosun pattah is maybe the sexiest sword type there is, -the curves, the T-rib blade, everything…

-On technical side, the hilt was quite a challenge to make. As I mentioned above the hilt is formed of four pieces forgewelded together. In practice it means that the two L-shaped parts that form the front and the back of the hilt and the guards were shaped to fit precisely on both sides of the tang. The long flat sides that also form the langets were then forgewelded on both sides of the L-shaped parts without deforming the channel inside – a very delicate weld to make, but in the end I did not have to file the tang or the insides of the hilt afterwards, the parts fitted together just so.

The original all-steel tulwar hilts have usually pre-shaped parts soldered together, but I just felt that I had a better chance of success by forgewelding the parts together. After the weld, there was quite a lot of anxious grinding to do – basically I was thinning out the walls of a tube – never knowing when the sanding belt or a file would go finally through and ruin the whole piece…

Heh, I thought of different words how best to describe the dominating shape of blades and came up with the word “droopy” – well, they definitely are not “floppy” or “bent” and calling them “curved” would only make them appear somehow “sabreish”. Probably my command of English language is not that good, but I “droopy” seemed somehow fit best. Anyway, what would be a good word for describing such downwards curving blades?

Another more technical comment; such forward curving blades are rather different to make when compared to manufacture of straight blades. All stages, forging, grinding and heat treating present unique challenges that one does not normally encounter when making straight two edged blades. -Again, one reason more why these “droopy” designs are so very fascinating!

Here’s two close-ups of the sosun pattahs hilt, please enjoy. (You might spot some snowflakes melting on the hilt in the pics.)

JT

btw, some of these newbies have been added to the website: www.kp-art.fi/jt -plus an infantry kopis not shown in this tread.



 Attachment: 95.14 KB
10 SP30519bo.jpg
Sosun pattah hilt, right side

 Attachment: 102.26 KB
11 SP 30422bo.jpg
Sosun pattah hilt, left side
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2012 2:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

All the new pieces have now been added to the website, please go and check them out.

-And in order not to forget the kukri altogether, here is a picture of the kukri with its but-ugly but functional scabbard and a close-up of the kukris' blade.

Cheers,
JT



 Attachment: 55.92 KB
14 tst kukri 30532bo.jpg
Kukri & scabbard

 Attachment: 85.26 KB
12 tst kukri 30034bo.jpg
Pattern on the kukris' blade
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jonah Marlow




Location: united states
Joined: 09 Aug 2010
Likes: 42 pages

Posts: 24

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2012 11:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm lovin that kopis Eek!
Jonah Marlow
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




PostPosted: Mon 16 Jan, 2012 8:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jarno-T. Pälikkö wrote:

Heh, I thought of different words how best to describe the dominating shape of blades and came up with the word “droopy” – well, they definitely are not “floppy” or “bent” and calling them “curved” would only make them appear somehow “sabreish”. Probably my command of English language is not that good, but I “droopy” seemed somehow fit best. Anyway, what would be a good word for describing such downwards curving blades?


Jarno, I was just teasing but you are correct it's difficult to find one word that describes these blades but maybe " Recurved " would work ?

A dictionary definition I found: Recurve, bent backwards.

In any case all of these are very attractive and impressive work. Big Grin Cool

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan, 2012 4:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you, Jonah. Making that long kopis did increase my respect for the weapons of the classical world and their lethality. I cannot wait to have a wee test-cutting session with that one!

Jean, I now you were - and if you think that I was dead serious when I wrote that “d-word” there in the first place, you are mistaken… Besides, the question is a good one, saying the blades are “downwards curving” or “forwards curving” pretty much describe the essence of the blades, but most other terms have some sub-meanings that give way to interpretations.

That term “recurved” is more familiar to me from archery circles. There it is often used in context with Korean, Mongolian, Turkish & other “Asiatic-style” bows, that have the distinct S-curve on both limbs of the bow.
Maybe because of this, the term “recurved” makes me think of a S-curved blade… well, many falcatas do have that secondary curve in the back, so there the term would be an apt one, eh?

I’m open for more suggestions in this,

JT
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Peter Johnsson
Industry Professional



Location: Storvreta, Sweden
Joined: 27 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 3
Posts: 1,757

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan, 2012 6:42 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I saw these swords in Helsinki and can attest to both their beauty and the solid quality of their workmanship.
It is incredibly inspiring to see such work from a fellow maker; expressing awareness of the sword both as a work of art and a functional object. They look nice in the photographs, but the quality cannot be fully appreciated until you see them with your own eyes and feel their lively heft.

Great work JT!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
William P




Location: Sydney, Australia
Joined: 11 Jul 2010

Posts: 1,427

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Tue 17 Jan, 2012 11:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

they all look very beautiful, but one thing that keeps niggling at me is the fact the hilt of the Kopis is so... nonexistant, i was under the strong impression that the kopis had the hilt your falcata does. i also hadnt expected the blade to be so slender.

is this a different style of kopis or is this what the kopis is ACTUALLY like.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
David Wilson




Location: In a van down by the river
Joined: 23 Aug 2003

Posts: 769

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 1:04 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William P wrote:
they all look very beautiful, but one thing that keeps niggling at me is the fact the hilt of the Kopis is so... nonexistant, i was under the strong impression that the kopis had the hilt your falcata does. i also hadnt expected the blade to be so slender.

is this a different style of kopis or is this what the kopis is ACTUALLY like.


The kopis, in general, is longer and more slender than the later falcata. Now, the gaurd of the kopis could be fuller, like that of the falcata, or more minimal, as this one is. Use the "Search" function for other threads on the Kopis and Falcata for some more in-depth info and pictures of originals.

David K. Wilson, Jr.
Laird of Glencoe

Now available on Amazon: Franklin Posner's "Suburban Vampire: A Tale of the Human Condition -- With Vampires" https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072N7Y591
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Wed 18 Jan, 2012 5:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Peter, thank you very much! Returning the compliment, that sinister sabre of yours was quite a stunner, I tried not to fondle it too much otherwise you would have noticed how my face turned green with envy! – And those discussions with you were definitely one of the highlights of the Helsinki show for me!

William, David, thank you for your comments. One of the things one should remember with kopis/falcate/machaira-swords is that the time these weapons were in use spans several centuries, likewise area where they were used was vast. So there are liable to be a rather wide range of variations in the design.

-Recently I came across of a new theory how to define what is a kopis and what a falcata: according to one expert it is a simple matter of having or not having the secondary edge on the back of the blade… never mind the regionally typical decorations, overall shape, or the find context… No edge on the back? – It’s a kopis! I did not quite warm up to this theory…

I find it easier to treat such swords as these as individuals, made by individual makers (maybe even) according to customers specifications. The surviving archeological material shows a rather wild array of shapes of blades and variations of hilt forms even when most of the material is very poorly preserved and many finds look more like a loaf of dark bread than a metal object. -And then we have the secondary sources, the pottery paintings, for example...

Anyway, this kopis of mine is based on the Villa Giulia sword, albeit loosely. The original blade is actually even slenderer at the waist and the back of the blade is probably even thicker than in my version. The hilt of the original is of the full-tang type and in its simplest form there would have not been any metal bolsters or such, just organic hilt pieces -perhaps with some rivet-pin decorations. The original blade is T-ribbed in cross-section, but me doing that on the kopis too would have made me copy my own work so to speak, hence the convex grind and fuller.

The whole hilt I made is actually oversized, the grip could have been one centimeter shorter at no loss to its functionality, but I decided to make the hilt big enough to fit a modern european-sized hand. In use the hilt configuration is very ergonomic and safe, the crook of the guard is long enough to keep hand in place when thrusting and “the umbrella hook” of the pommel makes it very difficult to drop the sword while swinging it. –When I get a chance to do some test cutting with this sword I’ll write a line or two about it here…

JT
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 23 Jan, 2012 3:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ummm,
Just so that it is not forgotten: the three swords, kopis, falcata and kukri are for sale. –I guess I managed to hide that info rather nicely among the other stuff in the first message of this thread…

Please check out their info from the website: www.kp-art.fi/jt/index_eng.html

The kopis does not yet have a scabbard, I am waiting for an inspiration for that one.

Cheers,
JT
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jarno-T. Pälikkö
Industry Professional



Location: Helsinki, Finland
Joined: 18 May 2007

Posts: 98

Feedback score: None
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 7:26 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi All,

I thought to lift this thread up again for two reasons: First, the sosun pattah-sword is now on the open market. Vexingly, customers’ plan how to raise funds to purchase the sword went sour, so I am stuck with the piece.

When trying to find a place where I could advertise the sword to potential customers (and maybe even sell it!) I was a bit surprised to find out that there really aren’t any forums or such for contemporary oriental-style weapons. Most sites I have found are about antique pieces or military stuff or something…

Second, last week I did what I threatened to do earlier in this thread – I did a bit of test cutting with the kopis AND I got the whole thing on video! Last week the weather finally allowed some activity outside, so I went and hacked some tatami-mats into bits. My multi-talented friend, Mr. Guy Windsor then edited the material into its present form.

The video turned out quite entertaining, especially its wilhelmtellish ending! Here is the link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27JS4YjPUOA

Please enjoy!

JT

ps. -The test cutting session more or less confirmed what I already knew – those ancient sword designs are very efficient and very scary…!
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jeremy V. Krause




Location: Buffalo, NY.
Joined: 20 Oct 2003
Likes: 1 page
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,493

Feedback score: 100%
(1 total ▮ 100% positive)
PostPosted: Mon 26 Mar, 2012 2:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I like the end! Big Grin

beautiful sword!
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Makers and Manufacturers Talk > A Quartet of ”Droopy” Blades…
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum