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Barrett Hiebert





Joined: 22 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2012 10:00 am    Post subject: Eastern Europe Migration Sword Typology or examples?         Reply with quote

Hello,

I've done a search on the forum but still have not been able to come up with which type(s) of swords (if they can be classified under the Behmer typology, as it is the only Migration hilt classification I know of) were used in Eastern Europe during the Migration period. If someone could provide me with either a typology to base my understanding on or specific examples with blade dimensions, hilt construction I'd greatly appreciate it. Thank you.

If I am able to gather enough information of a suitable sword that I do like I am hoping to commission a sparring/training sword to be made to accurately portray its handling characteristics.

Best regards,

Barrett Hiebert
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2012 10:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

AFAIK Behmer type IV's are associated with the Eastern Germanic tribes (such as the Goths) and are mostly found in Eastern Europe.
Éirinn go Brách
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Barrett Hiebert





Joined: 22 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2012 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey,

Stephen thanks for the reply.

If anyone can cement this with actual proof of a blade of such type from eastern europe of a credible source I'd greatly appreciate it.

Best regards

Barrett Hiebert
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2012 3:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett,

If you look at the the attached chart in the third post of this thread

www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=4405

As I recall all of the swords in group 4 were found in south Russia.

Éirinn go Brách
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Barrett Hiebert





Joined: 22 Sep 2006

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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2012 4:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hello,

Ah Stephen thanks for bringing up that link. I apologize for I may have confused you. When I was thinking of the type IV Behmer typology I was only thinking of the condensed Oakeshott Behmer Typology where it shows the type IV as being the shaped hilt swords as can be seen here above # 4. http://www.albion-swords.com/swords/behmer.htm An example being the Sutton Hoo sword.

I very much like all those types. But I am interested in the Type 3 since Paul Hansen's post 6th down labels the Type 3 being found in Romania (the country of my birth) in which I would like to reproduce any such known migration age weapon.

Though if anyone else could shed some light as to if any of the other Behmer type hilts/blades were used in the area of modern day Romania during the Migration period I'd greatly appreciate it! Preferably type 2, 5, 6, 8 as these are the types I am most interested in. I read through the thread (given by Stephen Curtin) detailing the findings of such hilt types and could find nothing.

Hopefully someone could help me out.

Best regards,

Barrett Hiebert
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Dan Dickinson
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Location: Michigan
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PostPosted: Tue 03 Jan, 2012 5:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try to find a copy of Das Schwert im Frühen Mittelalter by Wilfried Menghen. He presents another migration-ere typology. He focuses on Germany, might might show others slightly further afield (it's been awhile). It is written in German, and may be quite hard to find, but might be your best best for info.
I hope this helps,
Dan
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Paul Hansen




Location: The Netherlands
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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 2:10 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett Hiebert wrote:
I've done a search on the forum but still have not been able to come up with which type(s) of swords (if they can be classified under the Behmer typology, as it is the only Migration hilt classification I know of) were used in Eastern Europe during the Migration period.


This may be the wrong way to approach it. Eastern Europe is quite big, and swords from the Baltic coast are not the same as those from Romania. And the Migration period is quite long and quite diverse.

A better approach might be to determine which cultural group you want to portray: Goths, Huns, Byzantines, Sarmatians and Alans are all groups that were in Romania at times. There were also other groups, also depending on which part of Romania, and again, time.

This website gives a good (if still slightly rough) overview:
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/index.html

Stephen Curtin wrote:
AFAIK Behmer type IV's are associated with the Eastern Germanic tribes (such as the Goths) and are mostly found in Eastern Europe.
That was the opinion of Behmer, which was apparently popular in his time (1930's). Based on more modern publications, I think this type may rather be of Hunnish / steppe origin, even if also used by some Goths.

Barrett Hiebert wrote:
But I am interested in the Type 3 since Paul Hansen's post 6th down labels the Type 3 being found in Romania (the country of my birth) in which I would like to reproduce any such known migration age weapon.

Though if anyone else could shed some light as to if any of the other Behmer type hilts/blades were used in the area of modern day Romania during the Migration period I'd greatly appreciate it! Preferably type 2, 5, 6, 8 as these are the types I am most interested in. I read through the thread (given by Stephen Curtin) detailing the findings of such hilt types and could find nothing.


Behmer mentions this Type III sword found in Romania only in passing and does not give a find place, picture or other specifics.

However, in Menghin I found a sword from Ermihalyfalva (see attached) which I think is the one Behmer meant. Although the hilt is not preserved, the scabbard fittings fit into Behmer's type III.

This is also the only Romanian sword I could find in either Menghin or Behmer...



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Barrett Hiebert





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 2:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for your post and your hard work Paul. But I've decided just to go with a type 6 like the one you instinctively agreed on with me in my other thread. Cool They are by far the coolest looking to me and "being that they saw widespread use" on the continent that is enough reason for me. I've spent enough time researching trying to find that one blade that was used in Romania but no examples or enough of an example seem to exist. Worried Ah but it's not a big deal. Now all I have to do is find a appropriate late migration era shield... Razz

Regards,

Barrett Hiebert
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Matt Corbin




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett Hiebert wrote:
Now all I have to do is find a appropriate late migration era shield... Razz


I know it's probably a bit off topic for this thread, but this one was made by forum member Matt Bunker. I'm mildly in lust with it Big Grin


“This was the age of heroes, some legendary, some historical . . . the misty borderland of history where fact and legend mingle.”
- R. Ewart Oakeshott
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Barrett Hiebert





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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 6:40 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

No problem! That's a beautiful shield. Do you know if he does custom work?

Barrett
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Stephen Curtin




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PostPosted: Wed 04 Jan, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:
Stephen Curtin wrote:
AFAIK Behmer type IV's are associated with the Eastern Germanic tribes (such as the Goths) and are mostly found in Eastern Europe.
That was the opinion of Behmer, which was apparently popular in his time (1930's). Based on more modern publications, I think this type may rather be of Hunnish / steppe origin, even if also used by some Goths.


Ah thanks for the correction Paul, I knew these swords were similar to the "Hunnic" examples that I've seen, but I'm so used to people (Behmer, Oakeshott, etc.) referring to them as "Gothic", that I just assumed that there was a something, that I was missing, which differenciated the two.

Éirinn go Brách
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2012 2:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett Hiebert wrote:
Thanks for your post and your hard work Paul. But I've decided just to go with a type 6 like the one you instinctively agreed on with me in my other thread. Cool They are by far the coolest looking to me and "being that they saw widespread use" on the continent that is enough reason for me. I've spent enough time researching trying to find that one blade that was used in Romania but no examples or enough of an example seem to exist.
You might consider a Hunnic / steppe sword instead. It would be different and possible closer to what an ethnic "Romanian" may have used in the period, assuming that the local people were absorbed in the Hun confederacy, like the Alans and the Sarmatians.

Some examples of Hunnish swords can be seen here:
http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...mp;start=0

Matt Corbin wrote:
I know it's probably a bit off topic for this thread, but this one was made by forum member Matt Bunker. I'm mildly in lust with it Big Grin
Me too!! Eek! Cool

Was there a thread on this shield?
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Matt Corbin




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PostPosted: Thu 05 Jan, 2012 5:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Paul Hansen wrote:


Matt Corbin wrote:
I know it's probably a bit off topic for this thread, but this one was made by forum member Matt Bunker. I'm mildly in lust with it Big Grin
Me too!! Eek! Cool

Was there a thread on this shield?


Not that I'm aware of, but I could have missed it. I just happened to stumble across that picture while browsing his photobucket page. It's a remarkably nicely done shield.

Here's a shot of the back side:


“This was the age of heroes, some legendary, some historical . . . the misty borderland of history where fact and legend mingle.”
- R. Ewart Oakeshott
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Len Parker





Joined: 15 Apr 2011

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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jan, 2012 5:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here's an interesting sword in Hungary. http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?autoco...mp;img=543 Would this be a stone disc pommel from the steppe? On the preceding plaque it mentions the vandali but I'm not sure it's pertaining to this sword.
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Matthew Bunker




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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jan, 2012 11:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Barrett Hiebert wrote:
No problem! That's a beautiful shield. Do you know if he does custom work?

Barrett


Yeah I do. Wink

That one got sold on to a friend, after I'd made a couple of these for it......



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Barrett Hiebert





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PostPosted: Fri 06 Jan, 2012 3:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Matthew Bunker:

PM sent. Big Grin Beautiful work.

Barrett
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Sun 08 Jan, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Len Parker wrote:
Here's an interesting sword in Hungary. http://www.tforum.info/forum/index.php?autoco...mp;img=543 Would this be a stone disc pommel from the steppe? On the preceding plaque it mentions the vandali but I'm not sure it's pertaining to this sword.


Apparently it's in the Hungarian National Museum, and thanks for the link. Much interesting stuff that I haven't seen before. Happy

The blade seems to belong to a Germanic sword rather than a Hunnic one. Hun swords are typically longer and narrower.

The stone (actually glass, I think) is mounted as a pommel, but judging by the darker material on the tang right under the pommel, it may be restored. If so, I would speculate that the stone disk is actually a sword bead rather than a pommel and the sword originally had completely organic fittings.
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