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Net Uno




Location: Night City
Joined: 07 Dec 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 8:14 am    Post subject: Viking bastard sword         Reply with quote

Hi, I need your help. I'm looking for some pics.

It's possible to have a picture of an historical viking bastard sword or a two-handed viking sword?

I'm not an expert, so I don't know if these kind of swords existed in the past.

Thanks!

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Tim Lison




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 8:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Viking swords were exclusively single handed. You will never find a picture of a historical bastard or two handed viking sword. Sorry.
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Ken Speed





Joined: 09 Oct 2006

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 8:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I wouldn't put myself forward as an expert either but I think this question has been asked before and I think the answer is that they don't exist. Bear in mind that the swordsmanship of the time was largely predicated on sword and shield so it kind of rules out two handed swords.

There are some fairly large single handed historical Viking swords and there are some large modern Viking swords, Albion's Ulvbane for example is massive and comes in at around four pounds
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William Swiger




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 8:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You can find some longer grip swords that were made after the viking period that utilized a couple variations of the late viking era pommels. These of course were not viking swords.
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Christopher Gregg




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 9:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Net, I haven't seen your first image before - don't know if it's an actual Viking excavation or what. The second and third images have been discussed here before - I believe they are both attributed as being Renaissance era bearing swords, made to resemble Viking-age broadswords, but with two-handed grips. Hope this helps.
Christopher Gregg

'S Rioghal Mo Dhream!
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Bartek Strojek




Location: Poland
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:06 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There were obviously quite many discussion about it all over the Net, but in general, despite the traces of unusually long gripped 'Viking' swords found here and there, there's no real evidence that suggest that they might have been used as a "bastard".

Some links for discusions about it, on myArmoury as well.

http://forums.armourarchive.org/phpBB3/viewto...half+sword


http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...highlight=
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Jonathan Hopkins




PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:17 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is another good discussion of that sword (scroll down to post #19 for additional photos of the sword):

http://www.swordforum.com/forums/showthread.p...ght=viking


Last edited by Jonathan Hopkins on Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:37 am; edited 2 times in total
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Net,
no double edged two hand swords have been found from viking age. But there are some examples of rather large single edged seaxes, larger than any double edged ones found so far. These are thick backed beasts with over a meter in length and could have had long enough handles for a two hand grip as that is common with some types of more normal sized seaxes. What we have in this case is a long heavy blade with some length of tang remaining, but exatly how long the handles were we have no idea. Grips don't need to be full tang on seaxes, as seen from finds, others had really long ones indicating a long handle and we can't know for sure if the entire tang on the few super large seax finds are complete or fragmental.

So a typical sword, no, but a huge seax, at least possibly, though it's a matter of extrapolating from several seax finds and combining them rather than using a single complete sword find.

As William mentions, there are a couple of bastard swords with long handles made in (If I remember correctly) the 15th-16th century that use old norse style for their fittings. These are not actual viking age, but rather Viking Romance swords made later. But they can confuse people at times. However, if you're simply looking to make a later age but still historical sword that is in norse style, these are perfect.

Another idea is to make or get a dane axe instead. 2-handed as much as you want and with a small light head as some axes had you can use similar fighting techniques as with a longsword, and the weapon would be very much Viking... Wink

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Chad Arnow
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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Try this thread: Early Great Swords.

Most of these postdate what people typically consider to be the Viking age.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
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Rex Metcalf




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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Historical? No. However, I loved the concept and commissioned this sword from Micheal Pikula

Type XVIa blade: 36" Long x 2.5" Wide @ the base
Grip: 9.5"

Fittings are type AE based loosely on the Suontaka sword.

I made the scabbard and belt.

I call this sword Skrep and dont let her massive size fool you she handles beautifully.

So while not historical I think Viking and Anglo-Saxon influences coupled with later blade styles can be a great outlet for creativity while still maintaining excellent handling characterisitics and performance in solo drills and cutting practice. Considering the bulk of training material out there deals with the long sword, and so many of us are vikings at heart, I find it an excellent balance of performance and preferred aescetic. So in my opinion the concept is very valid for a modern collector/practicioner.

~RD



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Jóhann Malmquist




Location: Akureyri
Joined: 19 Oct 2011

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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 10:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The local museum where I live has a grave on display from the late viking age (tenth or eleventh century) and in it there is a sword that I think could at least be called a hand and a half.
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Gary Teuscher





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PostPosted: Wed 07 Dec, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Quote:
The local museum where I live has a grave on display from the late viking age (tenth or eleventh century) and in it there is a sword that I think could at least be called a hand and a half.


Probably used though as a long one handed sword.

Interesting though, with all the uses of the two handed axe you see with Viking types you never really see the sword used in this fashion.

I guess it's not to say a shieldless person (not by intent) could have possibly used a sword in this fashion - but I would not think it would be the normal use of a longer sword.

COme to think of it, I would not think that there would be training, informal as it might be, in the usage of a sword with 2 hands, so maybe using one with two hands even in absence of a shield might not make much sense.
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Net Uno




Location: Night City
Joined: 07 Dec 2011

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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 3:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
Hi Net,
no double edged two hand swords have been found from viking age. But there are some examples of rather large single edged seaxes, larger than any double edged ones found so far. These are thick backed beasts with over a meter in length and could have had long enough handles for a two hand grip as that is common with some types of more normal sized seaxes. What we have in this case is a long heavy blade with some length of tang remaining, but exatly how long the handles were we have no idea. Grips don't need to be full tang on seaxes, as seen from finds, others had really long ones indicating a long handle and we can't know for sure if the entire tang on the few super large seax finds are complete or fragmental.

So a typical sword, no, but a huge seax, at least possibly, though it's a matter of extrapolating from several seax finds and combining them rather than using a single complete sword find.


Thanks Johan, could you link any literature evidence about that? Thanks!

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Net Uno




Location: Night City
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 3:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jóhann Malmquist wrote:
The local museum where I live has a grave on display from the late viking age (tenth or eleventh century) and in it there is a sword that I think could at least be called a hand and a half.


Do you have any photo?

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Jóhann Malmquist




Location: Akureyri
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 4:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Net Uno wrote:
Jóhann Malmquist wrote:
The local museum where I live has a grave on display from the late viking age (tenth or eleventh century) and in it there is a sword that I think could at least be called a hand and a half.


Do you have any photo?


No but I can try contacting the museum and see if they have one.
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Net Uno




Location: Night City
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 5:30 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That will be great! Thanks! Wink
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Johan Gemvik




Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 3:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Net Uno wrote:
Johan Gemvik wrote:
Hi Net,
no double edged two hand swords have been found from viking age. But there are some examples of rather large single edged seaxes, larger than any double edged ones found so far. These are thick backed beasts with over a meter in length and could have had long enough handles for a two hand grip as that is common with some types of more normal sized seaxes. What we have in this case is a long heavy blade with some length of tang remaining, but exatly how long the handles were we have no idea. Grips don't need to be full tang on seaxes, as seen from finds, others had really long ones indicating a long handle and we can't know for sure if the entire tang on the few super large seax finds are complete or fragmental.

So a typical sword, no, but a huge seax, at least possibly, though it's a matter of extrapolating from several seax finds and combining them rather than using a single complete sword find.


Thanks Johan, could you link any literature evidence about that? Thanks!


How about lots of photos of large seaxes in "Die Saxe von Valsgärde". The book isn't commercially available anymore though but I can post some scans.

Also see this other thread: http://forums.dfoggknives.com/index.php?showtopic=15743

This thread has an imag of a large seax (sword sized) find posted with a long handle well enough for two hands and the tang isn't all the way through it. It also has a photo from the Valsgärde book with various long seaxes. Check out the #4-6 ones from the thames, one from Mortlake looks to be a meter long, since I know the shortest one seen (the Battersea seax) is 76 cm.

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Luka Borscak




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PostPosted: Thu 08 Dec, 2011 4:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Rex Metcalf wrote:
Historical? No. However, I loved the concept and commissioned this sword from Micheal Pikula

Type XVIa blade: 36" Long x 2.5" Wide @ the base
Grip: 9.5"

Fittings are type AE based loosely on the Suontaka sword.

I made the scabbard and belt.

I call this sword Skrep and dont let her massive size fool you she handles beautifully.

So while not historical I think Viking and Anglo-Saxon influences coupled with later blade styles can be a great outlet for creativity while still maintaining excellent handling characterisitics and performance in solo drills and cutting practice. Considering the bulk of training material out there deals with the long sword, and so many of us are vikings at heart, I find it an excellent balance of performance and preferred aescetic. So in my opinion the concept is very valid for a modern collector/practicioner.

~RD


I am very surprised nobody yet commented on this, this sword is one beautiful beast!
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Net Uno




Location: Night City
Joined: 07 Dec 2011

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec, 2011 3:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
How about lots of photos of large seaxes in "Die Saxe von Valsgärde". The book isn't commercially available anymore though but I can post some scans


Thanks for the info Johan, I will really appreciate these scans.

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Net Uno




Location: Night City
Joined: 07 Dec 2011

Posts: 8

PostPosted: Fri 09 Dec, 2011 5:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Johan Gemvik wrote:
This thread has an imag of a large seax (sword sized) find posted with a long handle well enough for two hands and the tang isn't all the way through it. It also has a photo from the Valsgärde book with various long seaxes. Check out the #4-6 ones from the thames, one from Mortlake looks to be a meter long, since I know the shortest one seen (the Battersea seax) is 76 cm.


The following images seems to me to be two handed or hand and a half at least. It's that right?

Figure number 6




I also find this pic in this forum:

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