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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 1:45 am    Post subject: Leg cutting         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6vTjaKdVoI

The leg cutting move I applied a lot during sparring was put to test with real sword.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 28 Oct, 2011 8:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cEAPjesoOg
Single handed cut.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 31 Oct, 2011 5:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrck8D17l38

Practicing solo wil drills in the padded sparring armor, showing that it does not hinder my movements any bit.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Fri 11 Nov, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mys5Z0EJD-s
A more clear version of the single handed leg cut, including following through action.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 1:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ROpXK_JN8

Practicing cutting legs targets starting from crossing arms position.

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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 7:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJfcVhHHuXY

The leg cut from crossing arms position with corrected blade alignment.

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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 11:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

How useful will this be against a skilled swordsman?!? Seriously, unless you had an overwhelming reach advantage, a simple step back and you can kiss your head goodbye. If you did have a reach advantage, I can just drop my sword point to block that shot as it's so slow with the squatting motion and just kick you in the face to push you over and then finish you off.
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 11:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

P. Cha wrote:
How useful will this be against a skilled swordsman?!? Seriously, unless you had an overwhelming reach advantage, a simple step back and you can kiss your head goodbye. If you did have a reach advantage, I can just drop my sword point to block that shot as it's so slow with the squatting motion and just kick you in the face to push you over and then finish you off.


If you ever visit Hong Kong, you're welcome to give it a try. Happy

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Doug Lester




Location: Decatur, IL
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:07 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't know about Lancelot's technique but attacks against legs were used. There are references to them in Norse tales and from archeology, skeletal remains with severed legs recovered from burial pits. An attack to the leg would be a target of opportunity, like when the opponents guard was too high or he was off balance. I personally think that stepping in to attack the leg with a low cut would be better than squatting but I'm not that versed in sword sparing.
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Lancelot Chan
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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

To quote somebody who hosts a lot of tourney:
"Johnny H

Lance

Thank you for posting these videos. There have been a lot of leg cuts landing in the HEMA tournaments and doing so against skilled swordsmen, with the attacker getting away clean. Some question if these would just be annoyance hits or would it actually take a leg off. It is good to see that someone is willing to test it out.


Steel Sharpens Steel
http://www.swordfightingschool.com/Tournaments.html
"

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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:20 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Doug Lester wrote:
I don't know about Lancelot's technique but attacks against legs were used. There are references to them in Norse tales and from archeology, skeletal remains with severed legs recovered from burial pits. An attack to the leg would be a target of opportunity, like when the opponents guard was too high or he was off balance. I personally think that stepping in to attack the leg with a low cut would be better than squatting but I'm not that versed in sword sparing.


Leg cuts when shields are involved I understand as it will be one of the few initial openings. I also can understand hitting the leg if that is an opening due to poor swordmanship (and yes not everyone on the battlefield would have good swordmanship). The assertion was how is this good vs somebody who was good. And yes I would rather step in to do a leg cut vs squatting myself as well...but stepping in has it's own peril unless you are doing so from having the line (in which case you can generally just kill them outright vs dropping the sword to do a leg cut).
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lancelot Chan wrote:
P. Cha wrote:
How useful will this be against a skilled swordsman?!? Seriously, unless you had an overwhelming reach advantage, a simple step back and you can kiss your head goodbye. If you did have a reach advantage, I can just drop my sword point to block that shot as it's so slow with the squatting motion and just kick you in the face to push you over and then finish you off.


If you ever visit Hong Kong, you're welcome to give it a try. Happy


Not very likely to ever make it out there...but who said I was a good swordsman :P . I am mediocre at best (I don't react very well...I think too much in a fight)...just pointing out some flaws that could be exploited in your technique (I make a better armchair warrior...because I think too much hehe). But hey totally will look you up if I make it out there. If you ever make it state side to the SF bay area, we can try it out here as well Happy .
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Vincent Le Chevalier




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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 12:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As for many techniques, it's all in the setup leading to that final cut... A technique taken in isolation is always easy to counter. The question is how much does the proper setup of the technique affects the cutting ability, which is difficult to test conclusively.

For my part, having been hit in the leg quite a few times even while determined to slip the strike, I think training to hit and defend that target is valuable.

Regards,

--
Vincent
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 1:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vincent Le Chevalier wrote:
As for many techniques, it's all in the setup leading to that final cut... A technique taken in isolation is always easy to counter. The question is how much does the proper setup of the technique affects the cutting ability, which is difficult to test conclusively.

For my part, having been hit in the leg quite a few times even while determined to slip the strike, I think training to hit and defend that target is valuable.

Regards,


That is true...but I am not seeing a good way to lead up to this cut. You would need to get the opponent's sword high and off line and off balance or low and off line in a massive manner...and if you did that, why go for the leg? He's yours already.
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Colt Reeves





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PostPosted: Mon 19 Dec, 2011 1:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, the afore-mentioned armour and shields might make the leg the only real target, but a thought that occurs to me is that if you were in a battlefield situation and were careful not to hit your mates, then it might be a very good technique for dispatching an opponent who is occupied with your friends and their spears or something. Not sure what kind of armour and what not China had early on, but for a lot of early fighting cultures the upper body is armoured before the legs, making the leg a tempting target. Tag-teaming an opponent thusly might make a lot of sense.
"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
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Ben Bouchard




Location: Bar Harbor, ME
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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I recall reading a research paper on medieval battlefield injuries and it was noted by the researcher that most of the edged weapon wounds were actually to the legs. Can't find the document for the life of me though, so take it for what it's worth.
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Colt Reeves





Joined: 09 Mar 2009

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PostPosted: Tue 20 Dec, 2011 2:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ben Bouchard wrote:
I recall reading a research paper on medieval battlefield injuries and it was noted by the researcher that most of the edged weapon wounds were actually to the legs. Can't find the document for the life of me though, so take it for what it's worth.


You might be thinking of the results from looking at the grave finds in Wisby or Visby.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Visby

http://www.chivalrybookshelf.com/titles/wisby/wisby_p178.jpg

I didn't find any significant studies or papers in my five minute Google search, but that's hardly conclusive and I believe I've heard numerous mention of studies being done.

In any event though, it is my impression that much of the leg injury evidence stems from earlier periods, where mail haubergeons and shields were the primary forms of bodily protection. This makes sense. If the legs are the largest exposed portion of the body then it should come as no surprise they would be favored as targets, particularly if you are fighting with a large shield you can shove into your opponent to bind his weapon and leave him open at little risk to yourself.



Moving back to Lancelot's use of a two handed sword for this task, similar arguments could be made for the technique. Like I said, I'm not sure of what kind of armour China had throughout various time periods, but if they did in fact go with the usual armouring of the more vital parts first then it is likely that they also had more armour on the body than the legs and that going for unarmoured legs makes more sense than striking an armoured torso.

"Tears are for the craven, prayers are for the clown.
Halters for the silly neck that cannot keep a crown.
As my loss is grievous, so my hope is small.
For Iron, Cold Iron, must be master of men all..."
-Cold Iron, Rudyard Kipling
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