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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 5:37 am    Post subject: Who is depicted it the Walter von Hohenklingen effigy???         Reply with quote

Hi

Today, I started reading Willhelm Tell by Schiller and after the first few pages, wondered enough about the history of Swiss to ponder Wikipedia and the net for it.

I soon came to look for the battle of Sempach (9th of July 1386) and studied the list of noble austrian losses of the german Wikipedia page ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_gefall...ei_Sempach )

I already knew the "Hohenklingen"-Effigy

from previous research, as many other people here will surely know as well. So I also looked for the famous Walter von Hohenklingen in the casualty-list.
As it happens to be, there was no single Hohenklingen killed in the battle ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_gefall..._Sempach/H ). Yet there were killed all the 4 males from House Klingen, a relative family branch of the Hohenklingens. ( http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liste_der_gefall..._Sempach/K )
Then I found out, that the Hohenklingen branch of house Klingen did have a different coat of arms then displayed on the effigy and also on the depiction of the Minnesänger Walther von Klingen in the Codex Manesse
The Hohenklingen coat of arms is said to be this one:

at least since 1225 AD!

So the said effigy is thought to be of Walter von Hohenklingen, and also thought to be connected to the Battle of Sempach.
But the knight Walter von Hohenklingen did not die in this battle (at least not according to the casualties list on wikipedia) and did carry a different coat of arms then the knight depicted by the effigy.
Now the casualties list has four "von Klingen" listed, Albrecht von Klingen, Burkhart von Klingen, Conrat von Klingen and Heinrich von Klingen, all of them bearing the same coat of arms as shown on the said effigy.

What should I make of this?

Every where I look, the effigy is said to depict Walter von Hohenklingen, died at Sempach. Yet Walter survived Sempach and inherited the Klingen holdings and their home-castle Altenklingen in 1394, described here: http://www.swisscastles.ch/Schaffhausen/hohenklingen_d.html

Has Walter changed his coat of arms to the one of the older Klingen-Line when he inherited the Klingen property?

Might be possible, but wouldn't he also change his name from Hohenklingen to Klingen then?

Does the effigy depict one of the Klingens slayed at Sempach and not Walter at all?

I don't see any inscriptions on the effigy, besides the coat of arms, how is the effigy dated and connected to Walter von Hohenklingen?
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Kurt Scholz





Joined: 09 Dec 2008

Posts: 390

PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 8:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Could he have fought on the Swiss and not on the Habsburg side?
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't think so. His liege was the duke of Austria and his property Hohenklingen and the village Stein am Rhein were he was reeve belonged to the hapsburgian territory until 1484.
It would be highly unlikely for him to fight against his natural liege and family and afterwards succeed to the barony and castle of Altenklingen.
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Johan S. Moen




Location: Kristiansand, Norway
Joined: 26 Jan 2004

Posts: 259

PostPosted: Tue 09 Aug, 2011 11:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

According to this http://www.hls-dhs-dss.ch/textes/d/D19737.php as well as other sources, the Hohenklingen line splits up into two branches in 1347, so perhaps some of them chose new coats of arms in order to differentiate themselves from the others?

Johan Schubert Moen
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
Joined: 11 Oct 2009
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 228

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2011 9:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I´d say, obviously the historians were erroneous.
who has ascribed this effigy to hohenklingen ?
i think 19th cent. historians were quite often inaccurate.
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Wed 10 Aug, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Though in the last part of the article in the Lexikon der Schweitz Johan cited, it states:
Quote:
Die Linie Altenklingen integrierte sich erst mit ihrem letzten Vertreter Walter, der 1381-85 habsburg. Landvogt im Aargau, Thurgau, Schwarzwald und Sundgau war, in die österr. Verwaltung. Nach dessen Tod 1394 fielen die Eigengüter an die Verwandten von Bussnang und zu einem kleineren Teil an die von Bürglen, Landenberg und Enne, während das Wappen und die Reichslehen, darunter die 1350 ererbte Herrschaft Matzingen sowie die Vogteien Oberwinterthur und Wiesendangen, an Walter von Hohenklingen übergingen


It means roughly:

Quote:
The line of Altenklingen was only intergated into the hapsburgian system of governance with it's last member, Walter, who was from 1381-1385 the hapsburgian sheriff in Aargau, Thurgau, Schwarzwald and Sundgau. After his death 1394 all his [allodial] property was given to his relatives iof House Bussnang and to a smaller part to House von Bürglen, Landenber and Enne while his coat of arms and his imperial fiefs, amongst others the lordship of Matzingen, acquired in 1350 and the bailiwicks of Oberwinterthur and Wiesendangen went to Walter von Hohenklingen.


So, it may well be that it really is said Walter von Hohenklingen who is depicted on the effigy. Idea
He would just have to take up the coat of arms he inherited as his primal coat of arms.
Nobles at this time had sometimes quite a lot of coats of arms, but in Germany at that time, it was unusual to show them all together. I'm really no expert in heraldy, maybe someone else could say whether this is plausible or he would have used his own Hohenklingen arms anyway?
Nontheless, he did not die at Sempach 1386 nor at Näfels 1388, after which battle a truth was negotiated.between Hapsburg and the Swiss Confederacy..


Men takk for henvisningen Johan. Det er jo veldig interessant!
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