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John Apsega




PostPosted: Mon 11 Jul, 2011 10:21 pm    Post subject: 13th Century German Foot Soldiers Kit         Reply with quote

I was told that you guys were the kings of kits so I am hoping that you all can help me. I am trying to go for a German foot soldier during this time (mid 13th century). I am going to post what I am going to buy to make my kit it would be amazing if you guys can help me out.

Arming Jacket
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB01...on+-+Black

Shoes
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...th+Buckles

Helmet with arming cap
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ap+-+White
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...pangenhelm

I was going to build a round shield for a good project but I can also go with this blank and paint it http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...den+Shield

I have no idea what I was going to do for pants any help ideas?

I am going to use my H/T Norman as my sword and I am going to build a custom sword belt to go with my kit. I am also going to be getting this ax http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...Norse+Hawk It will be altered quite a bit. The handle will be changed and made longer and the black will be grounded off.

I am eventually going to put mail over this so I am going to paint my shield with some form of heraldry now as well as painting my helmet. I would like to use black and white. Can anyone suggest some symbols that would be appropriate for a German knight.

I am 17 and on a very tight budget so I am going pretty cheep. Please give advice on the things that I have listed. I am going for as historically accurate as possible. Please list anything that I have missed but that I would need.

Sorry for all of the thinks

Thank you for your help John

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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P. Cha




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Umm...so how down on your luck and poor are you going for here again? The helm and shield is like 200 years out of date and as such while plausible that it could have seen use in the 13th cent is highly inaccurate as armor of that that era. That is to say, a soldier in 1250 may have used such items, but anyone who sees your kit will think hastings...not 13th century.
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Augusto Boer Bront
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Location: Cividale del Friuli (UD) Italy
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:15 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A kettle hat is far more better.
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...e=War+Hat.

Armourer-Artist-Blacksmith
www.magisterarmorum.com

Pinterest albums to almost all existing XIVth century armour.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think thats quite ok. the shield is also ok for 13th cent. although maybe more knightly and less footsoldierly.
the only weak point imho is the helmet. better try to get some early form of chapel-de-fer.
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Gottfried P. Doerler




Location: Tyrol, Austria
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:38 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

a good source for symbols and coat-of-arms is maybe is the codex Codex Manesse
it seems symbols were quite plain these days, i`ll post some examples



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walter von der vogelweide

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schenk von limburg [ Download ]

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von scharpfenberg [ Download ]
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So what kind of shield would be more appropriate then and what kind of helm would me ok other then a kettle hat what about this one http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=IR80...angenhelm.

Just because, I know that the type X blade on the Norman sword I am using is also out of date by this time, I though I would include this link which gave me the idea I could use it in the first place. http://forum.sword-buyers-guide.com/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=5333

thanks guys
John

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Just out of curiosity what if I was going for Norman, 1066 era. What all would I have to change?
"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Michael Ekelmann




Location: Seattle Metro Area, USA
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 1:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

When in the 13th century? There's a big difference between what a soldier from 1210 and a one from 1290 would wear and carry. Mid to late 13th century, you can use the Maciejowski Bible http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_bible.htm as a rough guide, later you have the Manesse Codex. Off the top of my head, I don't have anything for earlier in the 13th, but let me dig out my books at home and see what I can come up with.

For a Norman in 1066, maille hauberk, spangenhelm or conical helm with nasal, kite shield, sword, spear.

“Men prefer to fight with swords, so they can see each other's eyes!" Sean Connery as Mulay Hamid El Raisuli in The Wind and the Lion
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Till J. Lodemann





Joined: 15 Jan 2007

Posts: 97

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 2:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hey John,

look at the Maciejowski Bible (a.k.a. Morgan Bible), it's french but still a good deal of information for mid 13th century western european equipment.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...le_10r.jpg

http://www.themorgan.org/exhibitions/exhibOnl...nlineKings

I would totally use another gambeson, without frontal opening and maybe with a collar closed sidewise with material buttons, also a bit thicker if used as stand-alone armour.

There exist(ed) some good german reenactment groups with web pages, but I only managed to find one: AG Hochmittelalter (Work Group High Medieval). They also use the Maciejowski Bible for reference:

Helmets:
http://www.hochmittelalter.net/Klamottenzettel/Helm/helm.html

So the spangenhelm might be alright, a one raised one piece nasal helmet would be better, though.

Gambesons:

http://www.hochmittelalter.net/Klamottenzette...beson.html

Mailshirts:

http://www.hochmittelalter.net/Klamottenzette...stung.html

A basic kit is also important:

http://www.hochmittelalter.net/Klamottenzette...iskleidung

Best regards,

Till
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

Posts: 677

PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 3:24 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also try anything drawn by Matthew Paris. It's good stuff and my primary inspiration.

Also armour wise I'd agree with what's been said here.
You'd probably want a chapel-de-fer, coif (maille over quilted or just the quilted), padded collar, an aketon (quilted), a gembeson (stuffed), cuisse (stuffed or quilted), a large "infantry heatershield", spear with penon, defintly a dagger or knife, and maybe an axe or "chopper".
That's what I'd suggest (and am trying to follow too).

Member of Australia's Stoccata School of Defence since 2008.
Host of Crash Course HEMA.
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Jens Boerner




Location: Erlangen, Germany
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 6:07 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi,

The Codex Manesse is 14th century, 1305-1340, and does not have any relevance for the 13th century, not even for 1290. For the 13th century you'll have a hard time to even find evidences for real coat of arms- coloured surcots, yes.

As for the all-so-famous Maciejowski or Morgan Bible - it is french. You cannot emphasize enough how french it is- since it is easily accessable though the internet evereybody uses it, and stated- as a rough reference it is ok. but that's about it. Unless you don't aim for a french kit (parisian, to be exact) arround 1250-60, it does not help you much. Several things shown there cannot be found in germany of the same time frame.

Now several words about that shop: Of course, as always, it depends on what you want, but unless you mention something different I presume you want to achieve the historical equipment of a 1250 foot soldier in germany.

The first thing is: Aketon maybe/yes, solo-worn textile armour, no. Why? Because no german source shows any. No text source I know mentions any. The so called "gambeson" is very very widespread among reenactors, but there are hardly evidences for such in several countries. France? Yes, see the mac-bible above. Aketon, a textile armour worn underneath maille, yes.
Second: I've never ever seen any hint of any aketon or gambeson or whatever textile armour you want in black in the middle ages, except from dirt maybe Wink Reason: Dyeing textile black isn't that easy. Linen especially. And it does not make any sense for a piece of armour. Why? Stay for an hour in the sunmmer sun and you know why Wink And if you wash it several times you'll have a "nice" stone-washed look (especially with modern dyes)

Up to now, the current state of wisedom is, as far as I know, the a textile armour worn underneath maille in the 13th and early 14th century had presumingly a seperate collar.

You may look at this: http://www.brandenburg1260.de/ruestungen.html for a reference.

Try http://www.tempus-vivit.net/taverne/thema/Fus...vil#unread with a translation engine in case you can't read german, especially here: http://www.tempus-vivit.net/taverne/thema/westfalen-um-1250 you have a long list of german pictoral sources you may want to look at.
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Elling Polden




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 6:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This site has lots of different manuscript illustrations;
http://manuscriptminiatures.com/search/?manus...amp;page=1

There are plenty of literary sources for seperate textile armour in 13th c scandinavia, so it's not only france.

As allready mentioned, pointed helmet are still in use until the late 12th century. The round shields shown in Mac is thought to be a reference to contemporary heathens. There are few depictions of full sice round shields after 1100. They actually become MORE common in 15th c depictions...
As a infantryman, you could very well be using a kite shield, or a long heater.

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Jean Thibodeau




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A little more expensive but better looking would be this one " Nordland " axe by A&A

http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...rdland+Axe

Very nice little axe. Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 11:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Wow this is more information than I ever could have hoped for. Big Grin

So for a shield
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AB01...+-+12+inch I saw a lot of bucklers in the German manuscripts.
or
http://kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=AH67...ite+Shield

This for a aketon
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...t+Gambeson
or
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...ing+Jacket

Helm
http://www.kultofathena.com/product.asp?item=...me=War+Hat

I was told the Nordland axe was way out of date for this time period.

However if I do a viking kit....... I have been looking at three diffrent kits I cant figure out anything if I try to put a viking kit together what would I need then. I am so sorry for all of the running around I want to put all of these kits together and Now that I am faced with changing the kit I was planning on I might just change the entire kit that I am going to build.

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Sander Marechal




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would pick neither of those two shields. Bucklers are very appropriate for the 13th century, but not for soldiers. They carry big shields. The kite shield is out-of-date for that period. If you use it, cut off the top and make it into a flat-topped kiite. You could also make a large heater (I recommend just making the shield yourself instead of buying one. Much cheaper).

As for the Aketon, the first one you posted looks okay. The second one not.

The Knights Hospitaller: http://www.hospitaalridders.nl
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I would make one but I am worried about curving the shield. I found plans for a shield press online but it seems to make that it would cost more to make it than it would to just buy a shield blank.

What kind of people would carry bucklers?

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Mikael Ranelius




Location: Sweden
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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Apsega wrote:
I would make one but I am worried about curving the shield. I found plans for a shield press online but it seems to make that it would cost more to make it than it would to just buy a shield blank.

What kind of people would carry bucklers?


Glue two pieces of plywood together and curve the will-be-shield using straps, that's how I did it. Once the glue has dried the shield will stay curved.

If you ask me I think you could go for a buckler if you're planning to fight with some kind of spear, polearme or missile weapon as your main weapon, which leaves little or no room for a "proper" shield.

Quote:
I was told the Nordland axe was way out of date for this time period.


I don't know much about the situation in medieval Germany, but at least for Scandinavia (and a couple of other places) function mattered more than fashion, especially if we're talking about "common" warriors. That's why you see "viking" axes still being carried well into the 14-15th centuries by non-professional troops.
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 12:57 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John Apsega wrote:
I would make one but I am worried about curving the shield. I found plans for a shield press online but it seems to make that it would cost more to make it than it would to just buy a shield blank.

What kind of people would carry bucklers?


A shield press is nice, but there are more easy ways, if one does not plan on mass-producing shields.

I've made a kite shield with two poles and some rope...

Making the kit yourself maybe cheaper, more interesting and in the end more period correct. Especially when planning to buy stuff on the lower end of the market. Making a shield and clothing yourself is perfectly do-able.
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John Apsega




PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 1:13 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I am all for making things all on my own. I love being able to make things like that on my own.

So how would I bend the shield while I am waiting for the glue to dry?

What kind of pole arm for a buckler?

What kit would be easier and lest expensive to build?
-Viking style kit
-German mid 13th Century
-Norman Soldier or First Crusade Knight

"With 2000 years of examples behind us we have no excuse when fighting, for not fighting well." T. E. Lawrence
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Thomas R.




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PostPosted: Tue 12 Jul, 2011 1:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

John, I don't want to disappoint you... but this hobby - medieval reenactment - is expensive. If you buy historical correct stuff, it's expensive. If you try to make your own stuff and it shall look historical accurate - it's again expensive. You will need a lot of different materials and tools and knowledge to do it right.

You won't be succesfull with your "I'll ask some guys on the internet, what to buy"-attitude. No one can do the research needed for an accurate kit for you. We can only point out some ressources and give some hints where to look. It's up to you, to use the net and this database on your own. For practically every question you asked, there are individual threads on myArmoury. You just have to look for them.

I don't want to discourage you - on the contrary: I want to encourage you, to go on and do some research! Chose your era and whom you like to depict with your kit. And then learn everything about it. Clothing, armor, weapons, habits, literature - even what they cooked for breakfast back then. This is an integral part of the hobby.

Best wishes,
Thomas

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