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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:13 am    Post subject: Osprey illustration: Early 14th c. Central Italian Horseman         Reply with quote

In the Osprey Man-at-Arms series Italian Medieval Armies 1300-1500 there is an illustration of a knight wearing leather armor. He is described as a "Central Italian Horseman, early 14th C". The sources are supposedly from effigies from the 1300-25 in the Salerno and Lucera Cathedrals, frescoes from San Gimignano from 1290-1300, and a bas-relief in Bargello, Florence from 1320-25.

Does anyone know of online places to find any of these sources that inspired the illustration? I've always really liked the harness, but I want to look more into the historical sources to see how much is spot on and how much is artistic license.



 Attachment: 69.8 KB
DSC05944.JPG
The image from the Osprey title.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Gabriele Becattini





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2057

try this link, at the top of the page you can find some historical examples
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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:57 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is the Bas relief at least.
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Sean Flynt
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 10:59 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Funny--I've been looking at this book again this week and noting--again--that there are problems with some details in these illustrations. IIRC these were done in the early 1980s, and don't hold up to what GE has done since then.
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Phil D.




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Great site w/great pics Gabriele...thanks for posting it.
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Gabriele Becattini wrote:
http://www.villaggiomedievale.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2057

try this link, at the top of the page you can find some historical examples


Thanks Gabriele. Are any of those from the sources Osprey named? My Italian is non-existent outside of fencing terminology. Happy

To be clear, I specifically want to know how accurate that illustration is, which is why I'm looking for the sources that inspired it. Though alternate historical sources are certainly welcome.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Felix R. wrote:
Here is the Bas relief at least.


Thanks!

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Gabriele Becattini





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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 11:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

another picture from the tomb of Guillame du Durfort, the french commander of the Florentine army at the battle of Campaldino 1289,


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Felix R.




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PostPosted: Wed 08 Jun, 2011 12:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The line drawings from Nicoles Arms and Armour of the crusading era give some sources in english. There is the translated information for those paintings in Gabrieles thread.

Here´s another one, the arm harness is quite close.
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Alexander Bastoky





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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2012 8:43 am    Post subject: Italian Horseman Cuir Bouilli         Reply with quote

Sorry to resurrect this topic, but I thought it was pretty interesting. The images that Gabrielle put up seem to be very good sources.Bill did you ever end up doing anything with this idea?

I found that master armoruer Chris Dobson of the UK does some incredible cuir bouilli work: http://www.masterarmourer.com/13th_century.html
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Bill Grandy
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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2012 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Italian Horseman Cuir Bouilli         Reply with quote

Alexander Bastoky wrote:
Bill did you ever end up doing anything with this idea?


No, it's still on my "potential projects for the future" list, which as many here can relate, gets longer all the time. Happy

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--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


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Alexander Bastoky





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PostPosted: Tue 08 May, 2012 1:16 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill,

Are you interpreting the illustration as an armoured surcoat under a cuir bouilli breasplate, or something else?

-Alex
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Paul Hansen




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PostPosted: Thu 17 May, 2012 12:41 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Alexander Bastoky wrote:
Bill,

Are you interpreting the illustration as an armoured surcoat under a cuir bouilli breasplate, or something else?

-Alex


I'm not Bill, but the picture from the tomb of Guillame du Durfort that Gabriele Becattini may also show painted / decorated metal plate armour.

The fresco's (I copied the links below) seem to show the normal surcoat over maille.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4035/4717369254_dac1fe798b_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4064/4717363920_117d7e1cf9_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4019/4717371014_dd27699d33_b.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4717371966_910f4a115e_b.jpg
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