Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Early 16th c. Longsword ProjectDIY Project Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next 
Author Message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Early 16th c. Longsword Project         Reply with quote

Here's an idea I've been kicking around since I almost accidentally acquired the guard of an old Windlass "German Backsword".

I looked at this guard for a long time and found too much wrong with it to salvage it as that particular type of late 16th c. guard. I attacked it with a Dremel tool to remove everything but the side ring. Looking at it that way I decided it could be used to create a longsword in the German style of ca. 1520. Those typically have a pommel of Oakeshott style T, often writhen. I have art historical evidence for what Peter Johnsson has described as a peeled orange or clementine matched to this type of guard on a longsword. I also have art historical evidence for plain spherical pommels in this period. I'm not sure I've seen a plain spherical pommel on a longsword with this type of guard in this period. Diagonally-filed semi-spherical pommels like that on the A&A German Bastard Sword inspiration below also seem to have been common.

Just to prove the concept I put the rough-cut and otherwise untouched guard on an A&A Dürer blade and tossed in an Alchem pommel, which I correctly guessed would provide a reasonable counterweight. The grip is just a placeholder--the leftovers of an earlier Dürer project. I wouldn't use that type for this project. The result, without any other manipulation feels great and doesn't look half-bad.

So, I'm thinking that this project could work with:
• Refinement of the guard, include a stronger re-curve of the quillons, reshaping of the terminals (to spherical, maybe filed) and either a flattening of the inside of the side ring or at least a reshaping of that central swelling (again, to spherical, maybe filed). Bright or black finish would be fine for this sword. Typical of Windlass guards, it needs LOTS of material removed.
• Refinement of the pommel. I'd create a foot, which would give the pommel more of the clementine shape but not quite that pronounced. I'd like to try the peeled-orange facets but I'm a bit nervous about that. These pommels are about $13, though, so it's not as if I'm sunk if I screw it up. I'd create a decorative washer and nut for the top of the pommel.
• The blade is perfect as-is but I might have to take a small amount of the top to get the hilt proportions right. Not sure about that yet.
• Ignore the placeholder grip. The general shape is ok but I'll need something a bit more robust. My initial thinking is that these swords look great with all-black hilts and that was a common treatment in the period.

This might be my next project, depending on how quickly all of the pieces come together in my understanding. I wanted to just throw it out here as I ponder the possibilities. As always, I welcome critique, comments and suggestions. Big Grin



 Attachment: 179.23 KB
longsword.gif


 Attachment: 183.82 KB
1515.JPG


 Attachment: 28.21 KB
germanbastardsword_posted_by_sean_flynt_16.07.08_414.jpg


 Attachment: 82.06 KB
german-bastard-sword.gif


 Attachment: 22.71 KB
00445.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)


Last edited by Sean Flynt on Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:10 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ooh, I like. Sean, you do such awesome work, I can't wait to see how this one turns out. My only suggestion; do a red grip. I love your work, but I am not a big fan of black grips.
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:08 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a colorful, super-deluxe longsword project in the pipeline, Scott! Red grip, red scabbard...maybe even some gold. Assumes I can find the right leather and dye color. Big Grin
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 601

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Cool, I can't wait to see it!
View user's profile Send private message
Robert Hinds




Location: Whitewater, Wisconsin USA
Joined: 15 Sep 2010
Likes: 4 pages

Posts: 243

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 7:49 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks like an awesome project. Can't wait to see how it looks in the end. Happy

As-is that sword reminds me of the Cluny longsword...probably the grip...

"Young knight, learn to love God and revere women; thus your honor will grow. Practice knighthood and learn the Art that dignifies you, and brings you honor in wars." -Johannes Liechtenauer

"...And he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one..." Luke 22:36
View user's profile Send private message
Nathan Robinson
myArmoury Admin


myArmoury Admin

PostPosted: Thu 02 Jun, 2011 7:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean, that has the potential to be quite nice! I rather like it. That probably doesn't surprise you as you likely know what about my taste for these things.

Cheers

.:. Visit my Collection Gallery :: View my Reading List :: View my Wish List :: See Pages I Like :: Find me on Facebook .:.
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 04 Jun, 2011 3:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean, as another fan of this type, I'm also looking forward to seeing how this turns out!

One thing I find interesting about this type is that, while the pommel and terminals/finials don't always 'match' in shape, decoration, etc, there's often still a sense of harmony across the whole hilt that is often quite pleasing. I'll be interested to see your rendition of this!

I was also interested to see the highlights on the grip's cordwrapping in the first image you posted. I'm not sure I've seen any modern repros that feature this ... something new to try? Happy

Chief Librarian/Curator, Isaac Leibowitz Librarmoury

Schallern sind sehr sexy!
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov, 2011 8:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Seeing this sword of ca. 1500 at the Museum of London rekindled my interest in this project. I still keep thinking about a backsword blade, but when I pick up my experimental assemblage it really impresses me with its balance and proportions.


 Attachment: 110.06 KB
mol3.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov, 2011 8:27 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A quick sketch of the direction I'd go with this one.


 Attachment: 68.32 KB
longsword.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Tue 01 Nov, 2011 8:35 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A better view of the proportions:


 Attachment: 215.81 KB
swords.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Thu 12 Jan, 2012 8:02 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

progress on the guard. Still some stock removal left around the block and terminals, but the re-curving and most of the rough shaping is done. At a guess, I'd say I've removed about 25 percent of the original hilt. Big Grin


 Attachment: 216.52 KB
projects.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Sun 05 Feb, 2012 7:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

finished the lobed pommel, turned back to the guard and noticed a crack at the base of a quillon. applied some force and was able to open it. crack extends about 2/3 the way through the steel. filled it with jbweld, closed and clamped it. if it doesn't hold, game over Sad
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Richard Eskite




Location: Northern California
Joined: 27 Jun 2006

Posts: 37

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 4:39 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
finished the lobed pommel, turned back to the guard and noticed a crack at the base of a quillon. applied some force and was able to open it. crack extends about 2/3 the way through the steel. filled it with jbweld, closed and clamped it. if it doesn't hold, game over Sad


Why not have it welded up? It seems you have a bunch of time in this project and welding's not that expensive. Just a thought.
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 5:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

it's certainly worth a try because this thing was shaping up to be a beautiful piece. i know a guy...
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Julien M




Location: London
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,061

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 6:05 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sean Flynt wrote:
it's certainly worth a try because this thing was shaping up to be a beautiful piece. i know a guy...


Yeah that's your best option and would take about 5 min to weld. You might want to prepare the area with a dremel first, taking off the cracked area in a bevel as below. Once filled with weld you'll end up with something as strong as before.

I have a very similar project in mind for an albion type XVIIIb blade, so I'll stay tuned!

J



 Attachment: 14.85 KB
Untitled (Small).jpg

View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 6:56 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for that diagram! I'll take that with me when I talk to my university colleague/hobbyist welder.
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 7:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes! I'm back in bidnis thanks to a generous colleague who also revealed a complete machine shop in our science facilities, 50 yards from my office! I might learn to weld after all. I thought Vulcan was tormenting me but maybe he was just trying to steer me to the next level. Big Grin
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 9:01 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

A couple of phone shots of the progress. It's hard to see the pommel here, but it's four-lobed and without a foot. There might be a couple of areas to clean up with a file, but it's mostly ready for polishing. I'm just getting started on the guard terminals and still have lots of work to do everywhere. But at least I'll be able to save it! The cat is for scale Big Grin .


 Attachment: 102.91 KB
german2.gif


 Attachment: 95.64 KB
german.gif


-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Julien M




Location: London
Joined: 14 Sep 2005

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 1,061

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 1:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This is looking great Sean, the proportions are really nice and pleasing to the eye.

Remind me what blade you've used? A windlass? a tinker Hanwei? I'm puzzled by the length of the tang.

I take you've seen peter Johnsson messer video...want to give a go at some quillons roping?

Interesting pommel, hollow for sure given its size (mind you the tang extends so far I'm starting to doubt...). Will you top it with a flat flowery bolt for the peen?

And finally, this calls for a slender tool grip! That rules out chamois doesn't it? Happy

edit: I also like what you have in mind for these bare dagger blades. Will you grind of the raised parts at the ricasso area?
View user's profile Send private message
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,900

PostPosted: Mon 06 Feb, 2012 2:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julien M wrote:
This is looking great Sean, the proportions are really nice and pleasing to the eye.

Remind me what blade you've used? A windlass? a tinker Hanwei?

I take you've seen peter Johnsson messer video...want to give a go at some quillons roping?

Interesting pommel, hollow for sure given its size. Will you top it with a flat flowery bolt for the peen?

And finally, this calls for a slender tool grip! That rules out chamois doesn't it? Happy

edit: I also like what you have in mind for these bare dagger blades. Will you grind of the raised parts at the ricasso area?


That's an A&A Dürer blade.
Thought about roping. Not especially difficult, but there are plain examples as well. I'm not sure how I'd like it with this less complex pommel.
The pommel isn't hollow but it balances the blade very well. There's probably some perspective distortion here that might make the pommel look larger than it is. But with the 48" Type XVIII blade, it needs significant mass.
The grip will be waisted, for sure. Haven't chosen the exact form, though. I'll look into some thin calf because I'll need some for two other projects in the works.

On those daggers--yeah, I'll probably modify the tops of those blades in some way.

-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Early 16th c. Longsword ProjectDIY Project
Page 1 of 4 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2, 3, 4  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum