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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2011 1:02 pm    Post subject: Arming points for plate armour?         Reply with quote

Hello,

I would be interested in knowing how arming points worked between a gambeson or pourpoint and plate defences, and where they were placed on the arming clothes. I am currently most interested in the relationship between arming points at the shoulder and how they tied down a pair of spaulders. My own gambeson is currently without any arming points - what will I need to add to secure my shoulder armour? Do the plate pieces need anything done to them as well in order to support arming points?

Thank you for your time,
Emil Andersson
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William Frisbee




Location: South Shore, MA
Joined: 07 Nov 2005

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2011 1:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arming points will make your armour fit properly if the armour is made for you. It spreads the weight out, it balances the armour.

You will need to punch some holes and then re-inforce the holes/eyes in your armour.


I have holes that have been sewn to support them, and backed with leather to avoid over-stressing the points. I've then run thru the holes with the point kits I got from Historic Enterprises.

My arms are supported at the rebrace by points on my arms and elbows, my shoulders have a leather tab which is pointed to the upper shoulders of my pourpoint/gambeson.

Now that I have my more authentic haubergeon, I have no problems with wearing and fighting/teaching in my kit all day.

My legs are still not supported in a way I would like. I'm going to try a C-belt next, but maybe move to a suspension system similar to what Historic enterprises offers for the 15th century kit for legs suspension...
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Thom R.




Location: Tucson
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2011 2:21 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

On some pieces of my armour I prefer holes in the steel itself (my spaulders, couters) and for others (rerebrace, cuisse poleyns) I prefer a leather tab with eyelets riveted to the steel to point to. pointing directly to holes in the steel seems to me to be a "stiffer" system verses a leather tab which allows for a bit more twisting and movement. i just make my own leather patches and sew them onto my arming garments where I need them. ailettes on the ends do help when threading the cord at times. tr
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Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
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PostPosted: Wed 30 Mar, 2011 3:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

William Frisbee wrote:
...Now that I have my more authentic haubergeon, I have no problems with wearing and fighting/teaching in my kit all day....


When you're wearing the haubergeon, do you not just point your plate defenses directly to the haubergeon? Or are you pulling the arming points through the links in the haubergeon and still ultimately pointing your plate to the gambeson beneath the maille?

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William Frisbee




Location: South Shore, MA
Joined: 07 Nov 2005

Posts: 93

PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2011 12:58 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ian S LaSpina wrote:
William Frisbee wrote:
...Now that I have my more authentic haubergeon, I have no problems with wearing and fighting/teaching in my kit all day....


When you're wearing the haubergeon, do you not just point your plate defenses directly to the haubergeon? Or are you pulling the arming points through the links in the haubergeon and still ultimately pointing your plate to the gambeson beneath the maille?


I pull the points thru the maille. Attaching stuff directly to the mail feels uncomfortable.
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Aleksei Sosnovski





Joined: 04 Mar 2008

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2011 1:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Basically you need points to attach every piece of armor on your limbs that is not attached to anything else. On my armor that would be:
- points for attaching pauldrons
- points to attaching rerebraces
- points for attaching leg armor

You probably don't need points for rerebraces if these are attached to pauldrons. And on the contrary, you may need extra points to attach couters and vambraces if these are not attached to rerebraces. The idea is to have every pat of your armor hang from shoulders or waist so that it does not slip down and restrict your movement. Thus attaching arm harness to sleeve of your gambeson transfers its weight to the shoulder. The only exception are greaves that don't necessarily need to be attached to anything though there are armors where greaves are attached to upper leg defence either permanently or so that they can be detached.

You can also use points to keep armor parts from moving around even if these parts are already attached to something else. For example you can have an arm harness with integrated shoulder defense that is attached to your gambeson only at the shoulder but you can also add another set of points at the couter if you wish.

I usually attach points by making round or rectangular piece of leather with 2 holes, sewing this piece to the garment and then passing the points through the holes. With such construction it is difficult to accidentally pull out the points from the garment. Another plus is that you can always take the leather piece off and attach to another place. Exact places where you attach the points to depend on your armor.

For attaching leg armor I strongly recommend pourpoint (is it a correct word? A close-fittng vest-like garment). When done properly it very comfortable and distributes weight of the armor to your hips rather than shoulders. I used belts long ago but after I made this garment I understood the meaning of word "comfort".
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Sam Gordon Campbell




Location: Australia.
Joined: 16 Nov 2008

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PostPosted: Thu 31 Mar, 2011 1:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Also, as I side note I'd like to add that when you are not wearing your plate (or separate haubergeon) arming points when well made and tied in nice knots look pretty sweet, and couple that with some voiders or what have you, and you have an awesome looking arming garment.
Also, I have points for my (I don't use them all all the time, but they're still there to look good): pauldron's/spaulders, rerebrace/upper-canon's, couter's, vambrace/lower-canons, cuisse, poleyns, greaves/synchbalds, and sabatons Laughing Out Loud

Note: I second the motion for getting a pourpoint.

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Emil Andersson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 17 Oct 2010

Posts: 136

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 2:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I thank you for your replies, myArmoury is never a let-down when it comes to practical information. Happy

William, I noticed this..
William Frisbee wrote:

My arms are supported at the rebrace by points on my arms and elbows, my shoulders have a leather tab which is pointed to the upper shoulders of my pourpoint/gambeson.

..and if you take a look at the below picture of the spaulders I am considering, is it the same kind of leather attachment that you can see above the haute pieces?



I'm still having some troubles with visualising how the necessary arming points would actually look like. Would anyone here happen to have some pictures or illustrations of it?
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Aleksei Sosnovski





Joined: 04 Mar 2008

Posts: 313

PostPosted: Sun 03 Apr, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here you go. I have asymmetrical points because I don't wear full arm harness on my left hand when using a shield. In that case I only wear pauldron and couter.

P.S. On the pictures you posted there are ordinary buckles. Which means that these pauldrons are designed to be attached to a gorget which would have leather straps. A leather tab on armor would simply be a rectangular piece of leather with 2 holes in it.



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William Frisbee




Location: South Shore, MA
Joined: 07 Nov 2005

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PostPosted: Mon 04 Apr, 2011 9:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i know they are hard to see, but at the top of my arms you can see the leather tab I use to point my arms to my gambson/joupon.

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Vladimir R.




Location: Serbia
Joined: 03 Mar 2010

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012 5:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have seen this topic as the most appropriate to ask my question and not be considered as off-topic. I am having trouble finding a way to suspend leg harness to arming clothes; does anyone know what the historic method was? Is it period correct to use pourpoint vest as an under aketon garment for leg harness suspension or should i use some kind of belt? If possible post some pictures please Happy

V.
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F Hynd




Location: Bristol
Joined: 08 Oct 2011

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012 6:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Having gone through the same thing relatively recently for what I have read / experienced a well fitted pourpoint is historical and by far the most comfortable way of suspending a leg harness. as it should spread the load between the waist and shoulders.

Ill reference this page [url]http://www.revivalclothing.com/article-armingsequence.aspx [/url] but I cant remember any other good sources at this time.
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Ian S LaSpina




Location: Virginia, US
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PostPosted: Thu 15 Nov, 2012 8:18 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Vladimir R. wrote:
I have seen this topic as the most appropriate to ask my question and not be considered as off-topic. I am having trouble finding a way to suspend leg harness to arming clothes; does anyone know what the historic method was? Is it period correct to use pourpoint vest as an under aketon garment for leg harness suspension or should i use some kind of belt? If possible post some pictures please Happy

V.



Here's my standard blurb on proper pourpoint fitting, as it comes up a lot. I'm using the Revival Clothing version with reinforced leather tabs for the points:

Please note that the pourpoint does not meet at the center. This is absolutely required for the pourpoint to fit properly and do its job. The pourpoint must be worn tight and low over the hips and lower portion of the torso. If it meets in the middle, the tension is taken off the garment and immediately transferred to the shoulders. By keeping the garment tight, a weighty leg harness or maille chausses will not put any tension on the shoulder when you point them to your garment. Note how I can easily put my finger underneath the shoulder of the pourpoint while wearing plate cuisses and there's no tension on the shoulder. We think that these are 'period' for 14th century plate leg harnesses, and we just don't know if they are or not for earlier periods (a similar garment is vaguely deacribed in How a Man Shall be Armed). You could in theory completely cut the shoulder seams apart and it would not affect the function of this garment one bit. Being made of fabric, it remains flexible and comfortable over long periods and evenly distributes weight across the hips and lower torso without digging or biting in to the body. Belts tend to be uncomfortable after a long time in harness, and dig in to your hips over time, and can make sitting difficult. For my harness, I then throw an aketon on over this, maille haubergeon, and the rest of the plate bits.


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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
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PostPosted: Fri 16 Nov, 2012 3:51 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Later doublets are also frequently shown not meeting or barely meeting edge-to-edge on the waist; further up the chest they're frequently seen open far enough to obviously show the lacing. Going to shirtleeves in these doublets is done by slipping the sleeves and upper body off while keeping the part from the waist down closely laced to keep the hose up, so I presume that the basic idea is still similar: the weight of garments and armour pointed to the lower half of a later arming doublet should mostly be borne by the lower body.
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Christopher Denby




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 12 Feb 2012

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 1:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Lots of good info for those new to harness here. I've received my first plate harness pieces and and I'm the process of modifying my undergarments to suit so I do have a question myself:

My cuisses have buckles on the top instead of a leather tab with holes for points. Has anyone had any experience with sewing leather straps to a pourpoint or should I modify the cuisses to take points? Would straps on a pourpoint be historically correct/passable?

I had a play and found that tying the buckle to points at the front wasn't exactly a comfortable place to bear the weight. Where should the points for cuisses ideally be located? I'm thinking at the side on my hips...

I should add, they're 15th C and come quite high so they don't tie to the bottom of my pourpoint or arming cotte.
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Christopher Denby




Location: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 12 Feb 2012

Posts: 24

PostPosted: Mon 19 Nov, 2012 5:58 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm personally thinking of adding points as seen on Ian's cuisses but moving them out further to the hip joint. I'd assume this would prevent the cuisses 'dropping' when I bend forward which I find happens to me.
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Mark T




PostPosted: Sat 23 Mar, 2013 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Christopher,

Sorry to be late to this thread. Wouldn't your armourer be the best person to ask about these questions? My brief explorations in plate suggest there are some general principles, but that also armourers have different ideas about attachment, which are built into the pieces themselves.

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