Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Late 15 century handgun Reply to topic
This is a standard topic  
Author Message
Patrik Eriksson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 30 Jun 2010

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 12:06 pm    Post subject: Late 15 century handgun         Reply with quote

Im looking for any material abou a late 15 century handgun! Around 1470-1480
View user's profile Send private message
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 12:19 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This was a "transitional" period ( Matchlocks to Wheel locks.) so why ???
View user's profile Send private message
Patrik Eriksson




Location: Sweden
Joined: 30 Jun 2010

Posts: 5

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

why what?
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 2:29 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

1470-1480 the transition to wheel locks? Not from what I know of evidence wise. Earliest picture of it is dated no earlier than 1496 to 1511 by Da Vinci but as can be seen by the time frame under some debate. The first firmly dated picture of one is a german one from 1507. There are no remaining guns that are dated to earlier than this with the wheel lock mechanism on it. So if you add some twenty plus years might work.

Basically you are looking at a few things regarding personal arms

The pipe/stick gun. Basically it is a gun barrel (pipe) with a stick that is inserted into a rear cavity. These are fired by a touch hole on the top or side at the back of the barrel. sort of 2nd quarter of the 14th or mid 14th on into the 16th century.

You have the stocked guns. These can have fairly crude stocks to relatively nice ones with the barrel affixed by one or more bands of iron. Seem to be a 15th century thing. Likely late in the 1st quarter or the 2nd quarter.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons...lm_nr1.jpg

Sometimes these have a trigger somewhat like a crossbow that moves a fuse.

Here is a good picture
http://www.silcom.com/~vikman/isles/scriptori...match.html

These seem to come along sometime in the second or third decade of the 15th but into more general use after 1455 or 1475 where as they seem somewhat rare.

There is also the hackbutt or hook gun that was used usually on some form of defensive structure such as battlements. The long metal tube would have a hook on the bottom for this.

Take a look at Bert Halls Renaissance Warfare for better info.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Jack W. Englund




Location: WA State
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 186

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 4:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
1470-1480 the transition to wheel locks? Not from what I know of evidence wise. Earliest picture of it is dated no earlier than 1496 to 1511 by Da Vinci but as can be seen by the time frame under some debate. The first firmly dated picture of one is a german one from 1507. There are no remaining guns that are dated to earlier than this with the wheel lock mechanism on it. So if you add some twenty plus years might work.



RPM


I Stand corrected, Thank you

Jack
View user's profile Send private message
Thom R.




Location: Tucson
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Reading list: 30 books

Posts: 630

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 4:43 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

there is a new book out just in the past 6 months on medieval handgonnes from Osprey and for the price it is actually quite good imo.

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.1849081557.html

Recently, I made a handgonne for that 1470-1510 time frame which I showed here:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=18184&start=22

It is based on a 75 caliber smoothbore from the Rifle Shoppe. I didn't get any feedback on it here, this often seems like a very sword centric forum, but several re-enactors of that late 15th c. time frame gave me some good feedback on 2 other forums. there are several groups that re-enact the Burgundian Army of Charles the Bold which had quite a few handgonners.

http://www.myArmoury.com/feature_armies_burg.html
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,172

PostPosted: Sat 05 Mar, 2011 6:05 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom R. wrote:
there is a new book out just in the past 6 months on medieval handgonnes from Osprey and for the price it is actually quite good imo.

http://www.myArmoury.com/books/item.1849081557.html


Yes planning in getting that book next time I order something from Kult of Athena and add it to the shopping cart with whatever other thing(s) I might be buying at the time.

Oh, and I just posted a comment in your " neglected " Topic about the one you made. Wink Laughing Out Loud Cool

Have you tried shooting with it yet and could you hit a target with it ? I did see a video of someone doing tests with one and if shot instinctively by just looking at the target and pointing like using a handgun from the hip or at eye level but not using the sights ( Or like a shotgun ) the person in the video clip reported being able to hit a man-sized target at 25 yards reasonably consistently.

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 1:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Patrik,

As Thom says, this forum tends towards bladed weapons. I have found the following forum a veritable treasure trove of images and expertise on early handgonnes of the period you are looking at:

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/forumdisplay.ph...sprune=365

You'll have to trawl through a few posts, but it's worth it (eg. see below).

Julian

(sorry for re-directing you to another forum, bad etiquette)



 Attachment: 22.04 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,216

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 4:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thom....

I just missed your post or I certainly would have responded. Great job and a great looking piece. Have you fired it yet?

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
View user's profile Send private message
Chad Arnow
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Cincinnati, OH
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Likes: 21 pages
Reading list: 231 books

Spotlight topics: 15
Posts: 9,134

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 6:23 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Julian Reynolds wrote:

(sorry for re-directing you to another forum, bad etiquette)


It's never bad etiquette to direct someone to a good source of information.

Happy

ChadA

http://chadarnow.com/
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 8:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Chad. Some forums I've been on don't like sharing their toys, in a manner of speaking!

Besides, there are lots of pics on the other forum which I could post on here, but it would take me ages, would probably be bad form for copyright reasons, and would lose a lot of context in the transfer.

Vikingsword are a good resource, but they have a strict policy of not discussing or featuring reproductions, which is where myArmoury comes in as a great many people on here are interested in owning reproductions of original pieces. Between the two forums (and Armour Archive) you are pretty well served!

Anyway, enough derailing of this thread, sorry. I'll post a pic of another pole handgonne (see below), supposedly from 1500 (although the style of it seems much earlier 15thC). I'm hoping to reproduce this one at some point this year, in wood, though, as a wallhanger/curio (British gun laws are a bit too strict for me to have a true reproduction and hang it on my wall!).

Julian



 Attachment: 30.5 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 9:55 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jack,

No worries. I learn new stuff every day from some one. It is what makes forums and gatherings so useful and fun.

Julian,

I know several people over in the UK that do have such equipment and have all the proper authorization but can see where you are coming from. I know for the really short barrels some people hide a longer barrel inside the stock to comply with the non-handgun catagory.

I have seen such pipe guns from the late 15th why do you think it is dated poorly?

Good site by the way. I will have to look more of it over once I have some free time.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 2:33 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall,

Briefly (so I don't completely derail this thread) - ownership of a working replica of such a handgonne (either a short barreled version held on a Firearms Certificate, or a longer version - over 24" barrel etc. - held on a Shotgun Certificate) is perfectly possible (I hold both types of certificate). However, I would not be permitted to display either weapon - I would have to keep them locked away in a secure cabinet in order to comply with the law. I want to be able to display these and the only way I could is by making totally inert non-firing and non-convertible copies (easily done out of wood) or by buying antique ones (out of the question due to cost).

Below is an example of a copy I have made, for my own amusement.

Back to the topic, the reason I doubt the dating is that, by this time (1500) handgonnes had already evolved into hackbuts (or whatever terminology you care to use) that had a recognizable rudimentary stock. The first pic I posted was of a handgonne dated 1481 that would have been inlet into a stock, as opposed to stuck on the end of a pole. So a date of 1500 would make that pole handgonne rather archaic. That is not to say that they did not exist, just that things had moved on by then, that's all.

Julian



 Attachment: 77.84 KB
Pole Gonne 1.JPG

View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 2:59 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Sorry i should have caught the display purpose. Understand completely.

That is a nice reproduction you have made. I hope to buy a functioning replica of a pipe gun in the future but who knows if I would ever use it but at least I have the option I guess.

As far as the pipe guns. They seem to be the most commonly depicted fire arm in art of the last decade of the 15th and when we have enough detail they come up fairly common in inventories. Interestingly Henry VIII even had a large number of them in his inventory when he became king. That said the one piece barrel gun is fairly common as well. OF the three individual firearms I figure the hackbutt was the least common c.1500.

I have some ideas why the more developed hackbutts lagged behind but need to do much more research to get it where I would feel it needs to be.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 4:02 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

By 1507 we see rackfulls of Arquebuses such as these depicted below, which is why I believe the pole gun was an archaic weapon by 1500. The full-stocked gun had been around over fifty years by then. Guns were evolving very rapidly and their use becoming commonplace and their design ever more sophisticated. I seriously doubt there were any pole guns being made as late as 1500 in the more advanced nations, but I bet there were still plenty sitting in armouries (just as the US Navy was still issuing cutlasses up to the start of WWII).

Julian



 Attachment: 151.43 KB
[ Download ]
View user's profile Send private message
Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 6:12 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes I am familiar with it. The issue with that is that we are looking at the gent (or one of) who likely spent the most on firearms in Europe in terms of development and manufacture to that time. Just like today modern militaries use weapons that are half a century old technologically for the majority of work but clearly have and use much more modern items as well. Max had simpler guns on hand as well according to his inventories of that time, though I do not have enough of them on hand to say percents.

Of course many of the lesser organizations would also be often less well equipped. The mittelalterliches hausbuch and other artists involved with war of that period show such evidence as well in their artwork. I could not say if I can think of any accounts of new pipe guns made after 1500 off hand but it has been a few months since I have done research on the last few decades of the 15th century. So maybe.

My main point is that the simple pipe gun seems to be the most common gun of the 15th but because it is so simple or crude it often is looked over.

RPM
View user's profile Send private message
Jean Thibodeau




Location: Montreal,Quebec,Canada
Joined: 15 Mar 2004
Likes: 50 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 5
Posts: 8,172

PostPosted: Sun 06 Mar, 2011 9:46 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Randall Moffett wrote:
Just like today modern militaries use weapons that are half a century old technologically for the majority of work but clearly have and use much more modern items as well.


Or even older than 50 year old technology like the Colt .45 1911 automatic pistol: May be a hundred year old design but still in use next to Glocks or Berettas. Wink Old fashioned but not really surpassed as a useful weapon. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool

And probably won't be truly obsolete in a functional sense until we have Phasers. Wink

You can easily give up your freedom. You have to fight hard to get it back!
View user's profile Send private message
Lin Robinson




Location: NC
Joined: 15 Jun 2006
Likes: 6 pages
Reading list: 6 books

Posts: 1,216

PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 3:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Jean Thibodeau wrote:

Or even older than 50 year old technology like the Colt .45 1911 automatic pistol: May be a hundred year old design but still in use next to Glocks or Berettas. Wink Old fashioned but not really surpassed as a useful weapon. Wink Razz Laughing Out Loud Cool

And probably won't be truly obsolete in a functional sense until we have Phasers. Wink


A mark of that usefulnees is the fact that so many manufacturers are coming out with new versions of the 1911, Remington for example. The 1911 is my personal choice although I also have some modern composite frame semi-autos. The 1911 is reliable and that, in my book, is of first importance. The simplicity of design is one reason for that, echoing Randall's comment about the handgonne.

Lin Robinson

"The best thing in life is to crush your enemies, see them driven before you and hear the lamentation of their women." Conan the Barbarian, 1982
View user's profile Send private message
Julian Reynolds




Location: United Kingdom
Joined: 30 Mar 2008

Posts: 271

PostPosted: Mon 07 Mar, 2011 4:48 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It is a truism of any arms race, that as the more advanced nations re-equip with the latest advances in weapons technology, so their old inventories are dumped on the market at an affordable rate. These then become the equipment that is readily available to the masses, and therefore feature more and more commonly in 'everyday' use. Until the next advance in technology, and the cycle continues.

So Patrick has a choice (if he is looking for a gun for a historical representation from 1475) that depends more on whose army he is fighting for (and who pays for the equipment), as to whether he has pole gun or a full-stocked hackbut in his hands. But either would be contemporary with each other.

Julian
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > Late 15 century handgun
Page 1 of 1 Reply to topic
All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum