Info Favorites Register Log in
myArmoury.com Discussion Forums

Forum index Memberlist Usergroups Spotlight Topics Search
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > The development of the "federschwert" Reply to topic
This is a standard topic Go to page 1, 2  Next 
Author Message
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 10:32 am    Post subject: The development of the "federschwert"         Reply with quote

Hi all!

I am researching the development of what is today commonly called the "federschwert", ie a sword with a broader, often flared ricasso/schilt.

First of all, I should perhaps define what I mean with the term. Here I am referring to the general shape, not the handling characteristics or flex etc.

These swords come in several versions, both blunt and sharp, and the earlier versions appear to have been pretty much regular longswords, but with the well-known schilt. The later versions appears to have developed into strictly training swords with spatulated points and great flex in the blade.

Some suggest that these swords are mostly designed this way to change the handling characteristics, but I and others believe that the hand protection is much more important and that it is part of a much broader context.

The earliest reference to a sword of this type I have seen dates back to 1435, and I would love to hear if anyone else has any earlier references.

Finally, I have written a short article on this topic, but I am still working on polishing it. You can read it here: http://www.hroarr.com/articles/article-feders...gsword.php

Thanks, and have a great weekend!

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: The development of the "federschwert"         Reply with quote

Roger Norling wrote:
These swords come in several versions, both blunt and sharp, and the earlier versions appear to have been pretty much regular longswords, but with the well-known schilt. The later versions appears to have developed into strictly training swords with spatulated points and great flex in the blade.


Hi Roger,

Are you arguing that these blades were sometimes sharp in period, or is that just a reference to the abomination that Museum Replicas made? If the former, it is my understanding that these swords were always dull. The fact that they were seen in books like Gladiatoria, which shows an armored duel, suggests to me that these were the only dull practice swords they had--they didn't have one dull set for practicing Bloßfechten and another for Harnischfechten. And I take the fact that we sometimes see a point entering an opponent's body (as in the example in your article) as artistic license to ensure the viewer understood that a thrust was being shown.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, of course I am not speaking of any replicas... What would the point in that be?

I have spoken a bit to Peter Johnsson of Albion regarding this, and he mentioned that there were both blunt and sharp versions. So perhaps it is not artistic license we're seeing in that specific image, at least not regarding the penetration. Of course HER sword may be blunt and his a sharp, regular longsword... Happy

I am not sure of the context in the armoured combat depiction in the Gladiatoria manuscript, which is why I wrote "could" to indicate that it was just a suggestion, not a proper claim. But if it is indeed a judicial duel, then it is interesting. No matter what, it is also interesting to see such an early use of federschwert in the context of armoured combat...

Anyhow, I am not really focusing on the sharp/blunt issue here, but rather on how early we can see swords of the same shape as the "federschwert". 1435 seems to be the earliest, which is interesting since most want to place them in the 16th century fechtschulen.

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,148

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: The development of the "federschwert"         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Are you arguing that these blades were sometimes sharp in period, or is that just a reference to the abomination that Museum Replicas made?


Arguably, the Iberian Montante has this same blade profile for sharp swords that clearly were never intended for mere practice. For example, I've attached an image from Oakeshott's Age of Chivalry as an example. These aren't terribly different than the swords seen in the Goliath fechtbuch, so I wouldn't be too quick to call the MRL sword an "abomination", even if it probably was a misunderstanding of practice swords.

EDITED TO ADD: Here's a slightly different, but related topic: http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=2218



 Attachment: 14.68 KB
decosson.jpg


Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."


Last edited by Bill Grandy on Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:23 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,148

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Norling wrote:
Anyhow, I am not really focusing on the sharp/blunt issue here, but rather on how early we can see swords of the same shape as the "federschwert". 1435 seems to be the earliest, which is interesting since most want to place them in the 16th century fechtschulen.


Certainly we see them in several 15th century sources, such as Paulus Kal and the image of Liechtenauer in the von Danzig fechtbuch. I'm unaware of anything earlier than that myself... I am certainly looking forward to reading the results of your research! (I hope you dispel the myth that these were called "federschwerter" in period!)

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:29 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Roger Norling wrote:
Anyhow, I am not really focusing on the sharp/blunt issue here, but rather on how early we can see swords of the same shape as the "federschwert". 1435 seems to be the earliest, which is interesting since most want to place them in the 16th century fechtschulen.


Certainly we see them in several 15th century sources, such as Paulus Kal and the image of Liechtenauer in the von Danzig fechtbuch. I'm unaware of anything earlier than that myself... I am certainly looking forward to reading the results of your research! (I hope you dispel the myth that these were called "federschwerter" in period!)


Well I have put up a first version of the article as you can see in the earlier link. http://www.hroarr.com/articles/article-feders...gsword.php

I have included a list of all the illustrated resources that show them and it is quite interesting to see that they are in fact more common than regular longswords, even in 15th century sources, a little depending on how you count.

And yes, I am using the term "federschwert" although it is a neologism. It's been in use for over about 150 years and it is easier to use since everyone, at least within the HEMA community, instantly knows what is meant by it, although the term is perhaps a bit unfair, since it indicates that they are alway light or flexible which appears to be quite untrue.

Finally, I just added a new image to the article, taken from the Kaiser Maximilian Triumpzug of 1526. I'll add here as well. Happy



 Attachment: 157.9 KB
Maximilians-Triumphzug-02.jpg


Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com


Last edited by Roger Norling on Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:42 am; edited 1 time in total
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Allen Foster





Joined: 17 Feb 2008
Reading list: 4 books

Posts: 244

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: The development of the "federschwert"         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
Roger Norling wrote:
These swords come in several versions, both blunt and sharp, and the earlier versions appear to have been pretty much regular longswords, but with the well-known schilt. The later versions appears to have developed into strictly training swords with spatulated points and great flex in the blade.


Hi Roger,

Are you arguing that these blades were sometimes sharp in period, or is that just a reference to the abomination that Museum Replicas made? If the former, it is my understanding that these swords were always dull. The fact that they were seen in books like Gladiatoria, which shows an armored duel, suggests to me that these were the only dull practice swords they had--they didn't have one dull set for practicing Bloßfechten and another for Harnischfechten. And I take the fact that we sometimes see a point entering an opponent's body (as in the example in your article) as artistic license to ensure the viewer understood that a thrust was being shown.


I have heard it suggested that some federschwerts were purposely made with a very flat (thin) but paddle shaped tip. The purpose of this shape and thin profile was none other than to draw blood without causing irreparable harm to the opponent.

"Rise up, O Lord, and may thy enemies be dispersed and those who hate thee be driven from thy face."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:45 am    Post subject: Re: The development of the "federschwert"         Reply with quote

Bill Grandy wrote:
Arguably, the Iberian Montante has this same blade profile for sharp swords that clearly were never intended for mere practice. For example, I've attached an image from Oakeshott's Age of Chivalry as an example. These aren't terribly different than the swords seen in the Goliath fechtbuch, so I wouldn't be too quick to call the MRL sword an "abomination", even if it probably was a misunderstanding of practice swords.


I understood that the Montante was more of a grip--a ricasso with the points for protection, rather than a schilt designed to allow for a thinner practice blade--because it's a true two-hander, not properly a longsword. Is that considered incorrect? The Oakeshott example you gve seems the same to me, too, because of how it narrows inside.

I'm not arguing these points as much as I'm just trying to understand. For my part, I can't begin to understand why you'd have a schilt on a sharp longsword--most of them weren't long enough to grab the ricasso as you would with a true two-handed sword, so they would seem to serve no purpose.

And yes, the MR blade is an abomination, whatever the results of this discussion, because they were wrong when they made it.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 11:52 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, my theory, that is shared with a few others, is that it is there to help protect the hands, by moving the bind in the strong further from your hands, or by displacing the opponents edge away from the hands.

Roland of Hammaborg has suggested a similar theory regarding leather rain guards and perhaps this is why in most of the illustrations where we do not see federschwert type-swords, we instead see rain guards.

Rain guards/chappes are rare on the federschwert though, which of course would be logical if they were never sharped and therefore only used in practice, AND if they are only there to protect from rain... However, if they are sometimes sharp, or if the rain guard serves other purposes than our modern name suggests, then there might be some connections here. Just speculating at this stage... Happy

Oh, and regarding the image from Gladiatoria. Interpreting images is complex and there are few certainties. But it is interesting that both knights have scabbards on their hips, even the one carrying a "federschwert", and just as in a judicial duel there are spears on the ground. May of course be practice still, but the scabbards are interesting nevertheless.

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 12:11 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Norling wrote:
Well, my theory, that is shared with a few others, is that it is there to help protect the hands, by moving the bind in the strong further from your hands, or by displacing the opponents edge away from the hands.

Roland of Hammaborg has suggested a similar theory regarding leather rain guards and perhaps this is why in most of the illustrations where we do not see federschwert type-swords, we instead see rain guards.

Rain guards/chappes are rare on the federschwert though, which of course would be logical if they were never sharped and therefore only used in practice, AND if they are only there to protect from rain... However, if they are sometimes sharp, or if the rain guard serves other purposes than our modern name suggests, then there might be some connections here. Just speculating at this stage... Happy


I get your argument, however I've seen some pretty persuasive arguments against the rainguard theory (not that I want to derail this thread with that!). And there are certainly times that the Schilt does force the bind to happen farther up the blade--it happens frequently in my classes, at least--but it doesn't seem common enough to be a safety feature, per se, and in fact, sometimes it seems to get in the way of making a technique work correctly.

Roger, I'm really sorry, I didn't mean to divert your thread this way. I know this isn't what you intended to discuss, I just never heard anyone suggest that some of these swords were literally intended to be sharp before, so I wanted to see if there was any really solid evidence to suggest they were.

As for the name, I'm torn. I am always on the side of using the term used in period whenever possible, but I haven't seen any evidence for what it is, and we need to call them *something* in day-to-day practice.

Like you, the earliest example I have seen is in the Gladiatoria Fechtbuch, if we accept the 1435 date, but I'm sceptical about that, and consider it closer to 1450. The two earliest illustrated sources I have seen are Codex Wallerstein (part B, which is from c. 1410-15) and Talhoffer 1443, both of which show the "rainguard" thingy, which brings us right up to about 1450.

Anyway, good job bringing all of this together.

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 12:17 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks Hugh. No worries about derailing the thread. Discussion is always interesting, as long as it is at least somewhat related to the topic. Happy

I'm still not sure about the possible relationships between the rain guard/flared schilt/parierhaken, but it seems worth investigating. I'll let you know if anything interesting comes out of other private discussions.

Dating manuscripts is of course problematic, but it seems as if 1430-1450 is currently the earliest depictions of these swords, at least in the fechtbuchen. I am hoping to find other sources though.

And while I am at it, I have images of three different proper federschwert, the one in Turkey which Albion used as a source, the one in New York which Hanwei used and a third Italian that I think is privately owned. Does anyone have anything else to share?

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Hugh Knight




Location: San Bernardino, CA
Joined: 26 Jan 2004
Reading list: 34 books

Posts: 739

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 12:23 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Roger Norling wrote:
And while I am at it, I have images of three different proper federschwert, the one in Turkey which Albion used as a source, the one in New York which Hanwei used and a third Italian that I think is privately owned. Does anyone have anything else to share?


The one Hanwei used is in Switzerland, I think, not New York. You do not have that one in your article, so I included a picture below. You also don't show the pair at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, so I attached a picture of them as well.



 Attachment: 93.82 KB
Swiss Federfechter.jpg
Swiss Federfechter used by Hanwei

 Attachment: 115.55 KB
Practice Swords at the Met in New York [ Download ]

Regards,
Hugh
www.schlachtschule.org
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Yahoo Messenger
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 12:28 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ah, I mixed up the ones in the Met with the Swiss. Happy Thanks!
Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Sean Flynt
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Birmingham, Alabama
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Likes: 10 pages
Reading list: 13 books

Spotlight topics: 7
Posts: 5,908

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 1:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have a dim recollection of seeing this form depicted in a combat scene of the period. It really jumped out at me because of the context. I remember thinking, "so Windlass either got lucky or they knew something lots of us did not." Maybe I'm just imagining all this...I'll have to check my refs. Might have been one of the combat scenes Dürer proposed for the triumphal arch of Maximilian (not the Triumphzug image shown above--the text of that book clearly identifies those as fencers, IIRC).
-Sean

"Everywhere I have searched for peace and nowhere found it, except in a corner with a book"- Thomas a Kempis (d. 1471)
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Fri 18 Feb, 2011 2:55 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Sean!

It would be great to see images in the context of actual combat!

I have checked what references I could find regarding the Triumpzug Kaiser Maximilians and as far as I can tell the men carrying "federschwert" are only described as "men carrying swords". I think the reference you had in mind was:

"Herr Hans Hollywars, fencing-master, on horseback, and clad in regulation style. He carries his couplet, signifying
that, following the suggestions of the Emperor, he has arranged the noble art of fencing at the Court.

Following the fencers, marching on foot in ranks of five men, we have

Five men with leathern flails.
Five men with short staves.
Five men with lances.
Five men with halberds.
Five men with battle-axes.
Five men with shields, carrying the sword drawn (with
fencing-swords and hand-shields).
Five men with little targes and naked knives
Five men (in Hungarian costume) with pavois and Hungarian military maces
Five men with sabres (ordinary two-handed swords), which they carry over their shoulders.

All these persons are decorated with the crown of honou
r."

The German text is slightly different.

"Herr Hans Hollywars solle Vechtmaister sein vnd sein Reim auf die maynung gestelt werden:
Wie er hab nach adenlicher Art das gefecht aus des kaisers öffnung an seinem hof aufgericht.

Das frölich Ritterlich gefecht
hab Ich gemehrt, wie Ir dann secht,
in aller Ritterlicher Wehr
allain nach Kaiserlichen ger
nach Zettels art wie sichs gebürt
darin den rechten grundt man spürt.

Item das gefecht solt gestellt werden, vnnd albeg fünf personnen neben ainander in ordnung, wie hernach volgt, alle zu fueß.

Fünf personnen mit Tryschl. (flails)
Fünf personnen mit kurtzen stanngen.
Fünf personnen mit lanntzen
Fünf personnen mit helmpart
Fünf personnen mit streytaxt
Fünf personnen mit Pugkler, die sollen haben lanng degen plos in der hanndt.
Fünf personnen mit tärtschln, die sollen haben messer auch plos.
Fünf personnen mit pafeßen, die sollen haben vnngrisch koller.
Fünf personnen mit swertern in den Schaidten vber die Achseln.

Item die personen alle sollen die lobrenntzle aufhaben
."

Slightly off-topic again, but nevertheless very interesting. Happy

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
William Carew




Location: Australia
Joined: 23 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 154

PostPosted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 3:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Roger,

That first montage of the longsword in the article is mine. I saw this sword in the Askeri Muzesi in Istanbul and took the photos shown - see thread below for more info and a slightly higher res image:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...t=istanbul

I'm curious about your assertion that Albion partly based their 'Meyer' blunt on this sword - to the best of my (admittedly limited) knowledge my photos of this particular sword were the first ones publically available in HEMA netspace, and that was well after Peter Johnson and Albion had designed their 'Meyer' trainer. Has Albion actually cited this sword as part of their design process for the Meyer (and if so, did they get the chance to handle it, because I didn't!)?

Cheers,

Bill

Bill Carew
Jogo do Pau Brisbane
COLLEGIUM IN ARMIS
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 3:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Bill!

Ah, so that is your collage? It floats around the web and I can't remember where I snatched it. Do you mind if I use it? I can of course add credit to you for providing it.

Regarding the reference to Albion basing their Meyer on it... I can't remember right now where I read it, but I'll ask Peter Johnsson to make sure. He has read the article and I will continue discussing it with him.

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Bill Grandy
myArmoury Team


myArmoury Team

Location: Alexandria, VA USA
Joined: 25 Aug 2003
Reading list: 43 books

Spotlight topics: 2
Posts: 4,148

PostPosted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 5:40 am    Post subject: Re: The development of the "federschwert"         Reply with quote

Hugh Knight wrote:
I understood that the Montante was more of a grip--a ricasso with the points for protection, rather than a schilt designed to allow for a thinner practice blade--because it's a true two-hander, not properly a longsword. Is that considered incorrect? The Oakeshott example you gve seems the same to me, too, because of how it narrows inside.


Many of them do not have a long enough ricasso to grip, with some only being about two or three inches long.

I used to believe the schilt had more to do with the mass distribution, but over the years of using the design, I've started to come around to the idea of it being for protection. For starters, the name implies protection. But also there are certain techniques where your hands are more vulnerable within the safety of practice than in real combat. For example, when you wind and thrust -- If you are actually thrusting into someone, your hands are further forward, which creates an angle at the cross where they are very safe. If your hands are withdrawn (as you have to do with a practice partner where you are not really thrusting through), you either have to lift your hands a little higher, or else you can use a schilt to keep the fingers from being hit.

Virginia Academy of Fencing Historical Swordsmanship
--German Longsword & Italian Rapier in the DC Area--


"A despondent heart will always be defeated regardless of skill."
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Roger Norling




Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Joined: 27 May 2009

Posts: 109

PostPosted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 6:33 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this! Happy

I have added a pair of interesting images to the article now. http://www.hroarr.com/articles/article-feders...gsword.php

Quarterstaff instructor
Gothenburg Free Fencers Guild
http://www.gffg.se

Member of MFFG: http://www.freifechter.com
Member of HEMAC: http://www.hemac.org
Chief editor HROARR: http://www.hroarr.com
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Jon Wolfe




Location: Orlando, FL
Joined: 01 Aug 2007

Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat 19 Feb, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I forget which work specifically, but I remember seeing a manual that depicted longswords that had both schilts and cross-leathers.
View user's profile Send private message


Display posts from previous:   
Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > The development of the "federschwert"
Page 1 of 2 Reply to topic
Go to page 1, 2  Next All times are GMT - 8 Hours

View previous topic :: View next topic
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum






All contents © Copyright 2003-2018 myArmoury.com — All rights reserved
Discussion forums powered by phpBB © The phpBB Group
Switch to the Basic Low-bandwidth Version of the forum