[Roger Norling]

Hi all!

I am researching the development of what is today commonly called the "federschwert", ie a sword with a broader, often flared ricasso/schilt.

First of all, I should perhaps define what I mean with the term. Here I am referring to the general shape, not the handling characteristics or flex etc.

These swords come in several versions, both blunt and sharp, and the earlier versions appear to have been pretty much regular longswords, but with the well-known schilt. The later versions appears to have developed into strictly training swords with spatulated points and great flex in the blade.

Some suggest that these swords are mostly designed this way to change the handling characteristics, but I and others believe that the hand protection is much more important and that it is part of a much broader context.

The earliest reference to a sword of this type I have seen dates back to 1435, and I would love to hear if anyone else has any earlier references.

Finally, I have written a short article on this topic, but I am still working on polishing it. You can read it here: http://www.hroarr.com/articles/article-feders...gsword.php

Thanks, and have a great weekend!

[Hugh Knight]

[Roger Norling]

Well, of course I am not speaking of any replicas... What would the point in that be?

I have spoken a bit to Peter Johnsson of Albion regarding this, and he mentioned that there were both blunt and sharp versions. So perhaps it is not artistic license we're seeing in that specific image, at least not regarding the penetration. Of course HER sword may be blunt and his a sharp, regular longsword...

I am not sure of the context in the armoured combat depiction in the Gladiatoria manuscript, which is why I wrote "could" to indicate that it was just a suggestion, not a proper claim. But if it is indeed a judicial duel, then it is interesting. No matter what, it is also interesting to see such an early use of federschwert in the context of armoured combat...

Anyhow, I am not really focusing on the sharp/blunt issue here, but rather on how early we can see swords of the same shape as the "federschwert". 1435 seems to be the earliest, which is interesting since most want to place them in the 16th century fechtschulen.

[Bill Grandy]

[Bill Grandy]

[Roger Norling]

[Allen Foster]

[Hugh Knight]

[Roger Norling]

Well, my theory, that is shared with a few others, is that it is there to help protect the hands, by moving the bind in the strong further from your hands, or by displacing the opponents edge away from the hands.

Roland of Hammaborg has suggested a similar theory regarding leather rain guards and perhaps this is why in most of the illustrations where we do not see federschwert type-swords, we instead see rain guards.

Rain guards/chappes are rare on the federschwert though, which of course would be logical if they were never sharped and therefore only used in practice, AND if they are only there to protect from rain... However, if they are sometimes sharp, or if the rain guard serves other purposes than our modern name suggests, then there might be some connections here. Just speculating at this stage...

Oh, and regarding the image from Gladiatoria. Interpreting images is complex and there are few certainties. But it is interesting that both knights have scabbards on their hips, even the one carrying a "federschwert", and just as in a judicial duel there are spears on the ground. May of course be practice still, but the scabbards are interesting nevertheless.

[Hugh Knight]

[Roger Norling]

Thanks Hugh. No worries about derailing the thread. Discussion is always interesting, as long as it is at least somewhat related to the topic.

I'm still not sure about the possible relationships between the rain guard/flared schilt/parierhaken, but it seems worth investigating. I'll let you know if anything interesting comes out of other private discussions.

Dating manuscripts is of course problematic, but it seems as if 1430-1450 is currently the earliest depictions of these swords, at least in the fechtbuchen. I am hoping to find other sources though.

And while I am at it, I have images of three different proper federschwert, the one in Turkey which Albion used as a source, the one in New York which Hanwei used and a third Italian that I think is privately owned. Does anyone have anything else to share?

[Hugh Knight]

[Roger Norling]

Ah, I mixed up the ones in the Met with the Swiss. Thanks!

[Sean Flynt]

I have a dim recollection of seeing this form depicted in a combat scene of the period. It really jumped out at me because of the context. I remember thinking, "so Windlass either got lucky or they knew something lots of us did not." Maybe I'm just imagining all this...I'll have to check my refs. Might have been one of the combat scenes Dürer proposed for the triumphal arch of Maximilian (not the Triumphzug image shown above--the text of that book clearly identifies those as fencers, IIRC).

[Roger Norling]

Hi Sean!

It would be great to see images in the context of actual combat!

I have checked what references I could find regarding the Triumpzug Kaiser Maximilians and as far as I can tell the men carrying "federschwert" are only described as "men carrying swords". I think the reference you had in mind was:

"Herr Hans Hollywars, fencing-master, on horseback, and clad in regulation style. He carries his couplet, signifying
that, following the suggestions of the Emperor, he has arranged the noble art of fencing at the Court.

Following the fencers, marching on foot in ranks of five men, we have

Five men with leathern flails.
Five men with short staves.
Five men with lances.
Five men with halberds.
Five men with battle-axes.
Five men with shields, carrying the sword drawn (with
fencing-swords and hand-shields).
Five men with little targes and naked knives
Five men (in Hungarian costume) with pavois and Hungarian military maces
Five men with sabres (ordinary two-handed swords), which they carry over their shoulders.

All these persons are decorated with the crown of honour."

The German text is slightly different.

"Herr Hans Hollywars solle Vechtmaister sein vnd sein Reim auf die maynung gestelt werden:
Wie er hab nach adenlicher Art das gefecht aus des kaisers öffnung an seinem hof aufgericht.

Das frölich Ritterlich gefecht
hab Ich gemehrt, wie Ir dann secht,
in aller Ritterlicher Wehr
allain nach Kaiserlichen ger
nach Zettels art wie sichs gebürt
darin den rechten grundt man spürt.

Item das gefecht solt gestellt werden, vnnd albeg fünf personnen neben ainander in ordnung, wie hernach volgt, alle zu fueß.

Fünf personnen mit Tryschl. (flails)
Fünf personnen mit kurtzen stanngen.
Fünf personnen mit lanntzen
Fünf personnen mit helmpart
Fünf personnen mit streytaxt
Fünf personnen mit Pugkler, die sollen haben lanng degen plos in der hanndt.
Fünf personnen mit tärtschln, die sollen haben messer auch plos.
Fünf personnen mit pafeßen, die sollen haben vnngrisch koller.
Fünf personnen mit swertern in den Schaidten vber die Achseln.

Item die personen alle sollen die lobrenntzle aufhaben."

Slightly off-topic again, but nevertheless very interesting.

[William Carew]

Hi Roger,

That first montage of the longsword in the article is mine. I saw this sword in the Askeri Muzesi in Istanbul and took the photos shown - see thread below for more info and a slightly higher res image:

http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t...t=istanbul

I'm curious about your assertion that Albion partly based their 'Meyer' blunt on this sword - to the best of my (admittedly limited) knowledge my photos of this particular sword were the first ones publically available in HEMA netspace, and that was well after Peter Johnson and Albion had designed their 'Meyer' trainer. Has Albion actually cited this sword as part of their design process for the Meyer (and if so, did they get the chance to handle it, because I didn't!)?

Cheers,

Bill

[Roger Norling]

Hi Bill!

Ah, so that is your collage? It floats around the web and I can't remember where I snatched it. Do you mind if I use it? I can of course add credit to you for providing it.

Regarding the reference to Albion basing their Meyer on it... I can't remember right now where I read it, but I'll ask Peter Johnsson to make sure. He has read the article and I will continue discussing it with him.

[Bill Grandy]

[Roger Norling]

Thanks for taking the time to discuss this!

I have added a pair of interesting images to the article now. http://www.hroarr.com/articles/article-feders...gsword.php

[Jon Wolfe]

I forget which work specifically, but I remember seeing a manual that depicted longswords that had both schilts and cross-leathers.