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Forum Index > Historical Arms Talk > So, Lucas Cranach owned a messer... Reply to topic
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Elnathan Barnett




Location: The vicinity of Asheville, NC
Joined: 21 Jan 2004
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Posts: 32

PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 2:32 pm    Post subject: So, Lucas Cranach owned a messer...         Reply with quote

I was looking through Cranach the Elder's pictures on Google when I ran across a picture of Judith with a rather interesting sword. Further research shows that there are at least three different similar pictures, all with what looks like the same straight, single edged blade and rather elaborate hilt, though the details are slightly different. I think I have seen a two-handed messer or two that was straight with a rounded tip, but this is the first single-handed one I can remember. There is not a whole lot of information on these pictures on the websites from which I got them, but all seem to have been the work of Cranach the Younger around 1530. Anyone have more information?

I don't seem to be able to attach one of the three, sorry. It is the least detailed, however, and if you want to see it it you can follow the wikipedia link below.


Sources:
http://www.backtoclassics.com/gallery/lucasth...olofernes/
http://www.backtoclassics.com/gallery/lucasth...ictorious/
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Lucas_...4._022.jpg



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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
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Posts: 605

PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 6:52 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I have not seen anything quite like that before. Very cool, thank you for posting the wonderful pics.
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 7:31 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Other than he had a" thang" for pretty women with severed heads... No
This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Sam N.




Location: Beijing, China
Joined: 03 Mar 2007

Spotlight topics: 1
Posts: 114

PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 9:24 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The blades on them with rounded points remind me of executioners' swords, but the hilts are definitely messer-ish. It could simply be a fantasy sword as well, either being made up in Cranach's head or else a specifically showy prop in his studio.
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Lafayette C Curtis




Location: Indonesia
Joined: 29 Nov 2006
Reading list: 7 books

Posts: 2,689

PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 7:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

This discussion reminds me somewhat of an earlier one:

http://www.myArmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t...ght=judith
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JE Sarge
Industry Professional



PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 10:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It don't really fit the profile of an executioner or later judicial sword. To me, it looks like a German hunting sword:



...paired with with a Katzbalger-like blade:



Granted, the single-edge is very interesting there. I've never seen anything like it.

J.E. Sarge
Crusader Monk Sword Scabbards and Customizations
www.crusadermonk.com

"But lack of documentation, especially for such early times, is not to be considered as evidence of non-existance." - Ewart Oakeshott
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Phil D.




Location: Texas
Joined: 23 Sep 2003
Reading list: 56 books

Posts: 593

PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 11:47 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The hilts shown in the paintings are very similar to a mid 1500's falchion that is pictured in an old book that I own.If I remember correctly the falchion was in Waffensammlung ,Vienna.I will try and find the book so that I make forward a pic.
"A bottle of wine contains more philosophy than all the books in the world." -- Louis Pasteur

"A gentleman should never leave the house without a sharp knife, a good watch, and great hat."
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