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Arunas Bugvilionis
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Location: Lithuania, Baltic tribes, Vilkatlakai
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2011 5:37 am    Post subject: Earlest "pavese" shields         Reply with quote

Greetings to all history lovers,masters and warriors! I need help to get any possible information about earlest European "pavese' shields. Any pictures with dates?
I would like to know could Lithuanians had a "pavese'' shields in 13th century.
In Poland,in old Prussian Crusader's Order's castle(Marienverder) is a pillar recommit(dated 13th-14th centuries) with the relief portrayed battle scenes between Crusaders and Baltic warriors.Baltic warrior are with "pavese'''shileds.

Thanx in advance of any possible information.



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Arek Przybylok




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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2011 6:03 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Currently assumed that they were built in the 13th century on the border between Lithuania and Mazovia.
Here you have the best article about it:
http://picasaweb.google.com/arkadiuszprzybylok/Pavise#
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Arunas Bugvilionis
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2011 6:54 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arek, thanx a lot. In 1300 year Prussians was already conquered. So maybe in Marienverder(Kwydzin) was portrayed Lithuanians,the main enemys of Crusaders? I heard some hypothesies that origin of "pavese" is Baltic,or Lithuanian. I want to clear up that hypothesies,beside that I don't know that kind of shield I could use like 13th century Baltic(rather Eastern Lithuanian) warrior.
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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2011 8:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

15 century from Silesia, written sources speak of "shields of Lithuania " (lythische shilde, poffeysen, Grodków 1427; rusische tartsche, Jawor 1386). I think that's a good idea.
And in general see the material differences between the tribes, Prussians and Lithuanian? For example, from the Piast Wislanie no way to distinguish the archaeological relics.
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Arunas Bugvilionis
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Location: Lithuania, Baltic tribes, Vilkatlakai
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PostPosted: Wed 26 Jan, 2011 10:49 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Yes,I know about this title "Lithuanian(or Prussian) shield" amed to "pavese"shields. In late 13th century Prussian and Lithuanian archeological stuff is almost similar.Even helmets,in that Mareinverder bas-relief,crusader's enemies(Prussian or Lithuanian) wear a conical helmets with central crest (look at bas-relief,central "killed" warrior),such similar conical helm with central crest is founded near South Lithuanian present frontier in Belarus(Hrodna city) and dated to 13th century.With no doubt in that bas-relief are portrayed lately conquered Prussians,or main 13th-14th crusader enemies Lithuanians.
But it doesn't matter.I just want to know about earlest "paveses"in Europe and I hope it could be a key to answer about Lithuanian shields in 13th century.



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Arunas Bugvilionis
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Location: Lithuania, Baltic tribes, Vilkatlakai
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 4:00 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So,guys I don't believe, You have not any 13th nor 14th C "pavese" shiled pictures?
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Artis Aboltins




PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 6:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've got a nagging suspicion you have seen most of relevant pictures already Happy Last winter we were discussing changes to the combat rules for "early period" tournaments and mass battles in Latvia, and when we discussed shield constructions allowed, we talked about this sort of shield as well - and, sadly, there is not quite as much information avaliable as we might have wanted.
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Arunas Bugvilionis
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Location: Lithuania, Baltic tribes, Vilkatlakai
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PostPosted: Sun 30 Jan, 2011 9:22 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

OK,everywhere within the internet where is written about "pavese" shields, there are proposition that European origin of this kind of shield is Italy,Paveze region.So where are the evidences of that proposition?Or this is just linguistic conjunction?Any historical sentence nor drawing about Italian Paveze region shields?Any concrete date first mentioned "pavese" shield in Europe?
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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 2:25 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

So what are the parameters for "pavese" here? A shield used as a cover by missile troops? A large shield used by spearmen, often to cover friendly missile troops? A mantlet propped up on the ground to protect missile troops? Or just any oblong rectangular shield? If it's the last, then it'd be pointless to try to prove that pavises came from the Baltic since the similarity in shape could have been due to convergent evolution. Moreover, the Baltics largely faced the Teutonic Knights while the Italians mostly fought each other and the (German) Holy Roman Emperor, and despite the common German heritage the two groups are not identical to each other and we need not suppose direct diffusion from the Baltic to Italy through the HRE (although it's certainly possible to some extent).
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Arunas Bugvilionis
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Location: Lithuania, Baltic tribes, Vilkatlakai
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PostPosted: Thu 03 Feb, 2011 9:32 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I don't want to thrust hypothesis that "pavese" origin is Baltic. I just want to know about earlest "pavese" manifestation in Europe. By that proves based version about Italian "pavese" origin?
By the way in that pictures, I put here, if You want to see not a "paveses" but a common rectangular shield, You could, but when You see these bas-relief scenes directly (live) there are 100 % paveses. So in that scenes each warrior has a pavese shield (exept archer). Warriors with one handed weapons keeps paveses in left hand, warriors with the spears keeps pavese on their back. Everything is logical and natural.
And if we'll return to Italy,it's quiet strange what in the end of 13th C - the beginning of 14th C "civilized" christian Italians devised "paveses" and in the same time ugly and wild wooden pagan Lithuanians already use these shields. It smells of the technological piracy Big Grin, and perfect Lithuanian secret servise Cool

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Lafayette C Curtis




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 6:53 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Arunas Bugvilionis wrote:
By the way in that pictures, I put here, if You want to see not a "paveses" but a common rectangular shield, You could, but when You see these bas-relief scenes directly (live) there are 100 % paveses. So in that scenes each warrior has a pavese shield (exept archer). Warriors with one handed weapons keeps paveses in left hand, warriors with the spears keeps pavese on their back. Everything is logical and natural.
And if we'll return to Italy,it's quiet strange what in the end of 13th C - the beginning of 14th C "civilized" christian Italians devised "paveses" and in the same time ugly and wild wooden pagan Lithuanians already use these shields. It smells of the technological piracy Big Grin, and perfect Lithuanian secret servise Cool


I still don't quite get how you're defining "pavese" here. If by that word you don't mean a large oblong shield, then what? The only distinguishing feature that may indicate the meaning of your definition here is the vertical ridge/channel along the centreline of the shield. If indeed that's how you define "pavese," then I'm pretty sure we've been talking at cross-purposes here since I've never heard of anyone trying to attribute the invention of that central ridge to Italians. As far as I know, the earliest Italian shields to which the name "pavise" could be ascribed were large, rectangular, and flat without the central ridge.

So let's clarify your purpose once again here: are you trying to establish the Baltic origins of the central ridge on rectangular or oblong shields? That's not the same as trying to prove the Baltic origins of the pavise (which, as I understand, doesn't always have a central ridge), but I can see how it can be a worthy subject of research in its own right.
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Dan Howard




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 12:53 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Pretty much all of the pavise definitions I've seen here can be used to describe shields dating back to the Bronze Age, including full height shields with a central ridge or "spine".
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Johan Gemvik




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PostPosted: Tue 08 Mar, 2011 7:04 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

As Dan points out, far earlier age large sized shields existed with a central ridge. Especially some of the large Celtic shields resemble later age pavises quite a bit.

So how does one differentiate from pavises compared to other shields?

What I find typical of the pavises I've studied in museums is that they are always thick and sturdy, they come in all sorts of sizes, from short to tall, wide to thin, for use on foot and possiby for use on horseback, even for tournament use. What's the common factor is that they're thick and they're not just ridged but that it's the shield material making a hollow V-shape in the center, often with a flat at the middle.

Something like this: ___/-\___

This hollow acts similar to the Celtic tall shields as it creates a space for the hand so it doesn't need a boss. They seem to be mostly used as centergrip shields with three point straps coming together into a "Y" as a handle, but some had multiple optional strap systems, and at least some large ones came with grips for two hands.
The pavises i've seen were all laminated with leather and cloth in multiple layers, some were painted with arms and scrollwork, others were just plain one coloured but still painted over the leather or cloth. However, this layered laminating technique could also have been used much earlier than the pavise shields and may well not be unique to it.

I am intrigued by the photo though. Doesn't those maille clad warriors taking a beating wear full maille with mittens and hood, and "norman" style conical helmets? That could set ridged pavise shields use to far earlier than most think of them today. On the other hand we also see triangular shields in use and that sets it to later again. Is what we're seeing actually a battle between one side with top modern equipment vs a side with outdated, similar to what's been proposed for the Battle of Visby?

An alternative interpretation: This is where the knights finally beat the invading spacemen to their knees. Notice the oxygen tanks on the backs? Serves them right, notice that one of the spacemen is being very rude, whipping it out like that in public. Flasher spacemen invasion stopped by the flower of Chivalry. This must have made big headlines back in the day. Wink

"The Dwarf sees farther than the Giant when he has the giant's shoulder to mount on" -Coleridge
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Arunas Bugvilionis
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Location: Lithuania, Baltic tribes, Vilkatlakai
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PostPosted: Sun 27 Mar, 2011 11:16 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Excuse for my delaying.
The shield "pavese" I mean a quadrangular(often little taper to the bottom) shield with the vertical "ditch" in the centre.Such shields we have in Lithuanian iconography.
In Balts archeaology shield metal bosses "disapiers" from the graves from 8th century.In Latvia,Tyr bog is founded another round shield with wooden boss 100 % similar to metal bosses.This founding is dated to 9 th C.Some of our archeologist think that from about 9th C Balts began to use a "pavese" style shields,shields with "ditch" in the centre for the hand,an equivalent for the round boss.
In the attached file is a 1230-1241 year seal of Mozurian duke Boleslov.I've read that Polish got that style of shileds from Baltic Prussians.
And in the relief above there could be an idea to show "modern" crusaders arms against "poor" pagans,but I don't see anything moderner there,only triangular shields.Swords,chainmales,spears,even flags are similar.Beside,as I mentioned above very similar helm is founded near the Baltic Prussian area and dated to 13th C.If the helmet tapers it doesn't mean that it is Norman.
...back to the oxygen tanks,I think it's to much smoke...



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Kurt Scholz





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PostPosted: Sun 27 Mar, 2011 11:34 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

There might be a problem with words. The shield development you mentioned for the Baltic may not have been called a pavese until some defining moment. That could be an association with some Italian shields or a technical development. So what were the Baltic names for the precursors and how did other nations refer to them?
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