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Nick Esposito




Location: Northern Virgina, US
Joined: 11 Dec 2010

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PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2011 12:38 pm    Post subject: Scaled Aventail         Reply with quote

I came across this image in an Osprey Book about the Hundred Years War and I was interested to find a Aventail or Camail made of small square plates, or "scales". Is their historical evidence that validates this? It certainly is the first time Ive seen such an application.



The Caption Reads: The infantry of France (1360-1415 gg.): 1 - arbalester suite of Jean de Angers (ca. 1407), 2 - the militia of Rennes (c. 1370), 3 - light infantry from the south of France (c. 1400 city).

There are no numbers so I cant tell who is who.
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Craig Shackleton




Location: Ottawa, Canada
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2011 1:37 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'd have to double-check, but I'm pretty sure that the Gladiatoria fechtbucher show what appear to be scale aventails like that. I know that they show that style of scale covering the foot occasionally, and elsewhere as well, but it may be a skirt/fauld and not an aventail. If the dates that I have heard for these books are correct, they don't really correspond to that image, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the Gladiatoria group are much earlier than is generally stated, or that they are copied from earlier works.

Not much to go on, but I hope it helps.

EDIT: I just did a quick scan of the images I have, and in fact there are no aventails that match your picture. I did find both skirts and foot armour though.

Ottawa Swordplay
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Sun 02 Jan, 2011 3:56 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well there are some I can think of.

The Holkham Bible has a few and the Tewkesbury Abby window-piece has a few others.

RPM
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Nick Esposito




Location: Northern Virgina, US
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Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Accidental post. Sorry Blush

Last edited by Nick Esposito on Mon 03 Jan, 2011 12:16 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Nick Esposito




Location: Northern Virgina, US
Joined: 11 Dec 2010

Posts: 19

PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2011 12:15 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thanks to the direction of Randall Moffett, I was able to find a depiction of this "scaled Aventail" In the The Abbey of the Blessed Virgin Mary in Tewkesbury, England. Also on another note, the 3rd Knight down from the left has only one arm in full plate harness, the other is in Maille with a couter. Wonder why that is? For those who are having trouble seeing the details, You can enlarge the Image by putting your cursor on it and right clicking then select "open Image" .

Here is the Window.


Image rights reserved NeilWildin Photography
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Elling Polden




Location: Bergen, Norway
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PostPosted: Mon 03 Jan, 2011 3:22 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Nick Esposito wrote:
. Also on another note, the 3rd Knight down from the left has only one arm in full plate harness, the other is in Maille with a couter. Wonder why that is?


Because he uses a shield hung on that shoulder, and thus does not need plate on top?

"this [fight] looks curious, almost like a game. See, they are looking around them before they fall, to find a dry spot to fall on, or they are falling on their shields. Can you see blood on their cloths and weapons? No. This must be trickery."
-Reidar Sendeman, from King Sverre's Saga, 1201
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Nathan F




Location: ireland
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 4:36 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

i spent a good while trying to find any actual evidence of scale armour during the medieval period and found none there was plenty in artwork but much of it was on saracens goliath all evil characters there was also plenty on some knights and effigy's but i have never seen a single find so i still dont know.
for here starts war carrion birds sing, and grey wolves howl
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Christian G. Cameron




Location: Toronto, Canada
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 5:20 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I'm going to guess that he didn't feel he needed a plate rerebrace under his shield--and that this is the transitional period... Have a date? Is this 1340-60?
Christian G. Cameron

Qui plus fait, miex vault

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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
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PostPosted: Wed 05 Jan, 2011 6:37 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think it is hard to say why one has two full arms, one one, and two mail with some plate additions. My guess is the shield is a good reason the one gent has full plate on his right arm though. Perhaps personal preference played a part in how they armed in this way. I find it more comfy to have just mail with some plate on my shield arm but after a few random hits now wear it on both arms. All I can say is that by this point full arms show up fairly often in text so they were about.

Nathan,

Since there is a small percent/almost no armour from pre 1350 I think this lack of evidence is not just limited to scale. If we did not use art, literature and other sources to complement the archaeology we'd know very little about armour before 1350, perhaps even the 15th century. The fact it shows up in so much art on westerners makes me think it unlikely it was not in some use.

RPM
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