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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 2:27 pm    Post subject: Two unidentified breastplates         Reply with quote

Welcome
Looking for any information on these breastplate.
Dated, workshop, etc..

first:


second
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Andrea Scattolin




Location: verona-italy
Joined: 15 Nov 2008
Likes: 2 pages
Reading list: 1 book

Posts: 84

PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 5:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

It looks tome,as a GOTHIC typ,of breastplate,possibly,of the first half,of 15th century.
I amsure,many here,would know very much on this subject.
Regards

Andrea
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Torsten F.H. Wilke




Location: Irvine Spectrum, CA
Joined: 01 Jul 2006

Posts: 250

PostPosted: Thu 25 Nov, 2010 8:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Unfortunately, I would not be the least bit surprised if those two examples were of Victorian era manufacture, and not period pieces. But then again, I am definitely no expert in the matter...
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W Luth




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 22 Oct 2010

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 1:14 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I definately don't know whether they are originals or not so I'm not commenting on that.

The 2nd breastplate looks similar to some 2nd half / 4th quarter (15th c) models i saw in a book i just picked up.
I'll look it up tonight but i remember seeing the close set fluting and wondering if it was a transitional model from fluted style to maximillian.
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Lucas Simms




Location: Washington
Joined: 14 Mar 2010

Posts: 33

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 1:21 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The first one, if it's an original, could date from mid to late 15th century.
The second one is peculiar. Looks like an ugly hybrid of a mid 15th century and an early 16th century piece.

Lucas
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Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 399

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 7:31 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I've seen the first breasplate, but I have no idea where to look for it. I would say early German Gothic, 1460 - 1470, maybe even Italian export.

Second breastplate is late Kastenbrust era German, ca. 1450, Metropolitan Museum of Art. There's a very similar breastplate on statue of Emperor Friedrich III from 1453 in Wiener Neustadt, Imperial castle (by Jakob Kaschauer). Sorry, no picture on net.


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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W Luth




Location: Netherlands
Joined: 22 Oct 2010

Posts: 13

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 2:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Ok, i looked up the pictures, there are 2 images in Stanislav Hrbaty's Platové Zbroje, items 40 and 41 that are quite similar to the style in the 2nd picture.

From what i understand of it (i dont speak Czech but google translator does, more or less) they are based on the 1480s but might be a product from the 19th century romantic movement. Crafted in / found in Nemecko (?)

Both items in the book can be found in the Johoceske muzeum v. Ceskych Budejovicich


Sorry, no scans tonight - have to get to bed before i drop, will post some once i get round to it.
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 3:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I think the first one is in "The Knight and the Blast Furnace" but since I don't have the book I can't check it up. Iv'e definately seen it before and I'd say german or maybe austrian ca 1480. But as Blaz pointed out it might just well be a bit earlier and italian export. Now this is going to annoy the hell out of me until I find the picture. And it's just recently too... there goes this night's sleep...
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Scott Woodruff





Joined: 30 Nov 2005
Likes: 8 pages

Posts: 605

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Does that second one look more like a backplate to anyone but me?
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Blaz Berlec




Location: Podgorje, Kamnik, Slovenia, Europe
Joined: 26 Aug 2003
Reading list: 1 book

Spotlight topics: 4
Posts: 399

PostPosted: Fri 26 Nov, 2010 11:51 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Still haven't found anything on the first one, it doesn't seem to be in "The Knight and the Blast Furnace".

The second one is described in Claude Blair, European armour, page 93, and the photo of Emperor Friedrich III statue is on page 103.

The breastplate in the second photo (Metropolitan Museum) is from a Chalcis (or Xalcis) hoard, discovered in 1840 in Greece (castle was in Venetian hands until 1470, and most pieces from the hoard are from late 14th to mid 15th century).

Similar fluting is also seen on a waist lame for back plate and on pauldron in Royal armouries, Leeds (dated 1450 - 1460),

Emperor Friedrich III from 1453 in Wiener Neustadt, Imperial castle (by Jakob Kaschauer)


Maybe it looks like a backplate to some because it's fluting resembles the fluting of Gothic era backplates (extending from the waist out). This direction of fluting was common during the Kastenbrust era breastplates, but usually they were not so dense and "maximillian-like". But it did exist, and not just in single example.

Berlin - Deutsches Historisches Museum, High Gothic era backplate:


Extant 15th Century German Gothic Armour
Extant 15th century Milanese armour
Arming doublet of the 15th century
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Tomasz Nowak




Location: Regensburg, Germany
Joined: 19 Jan 2004

Posts: 15

PostPosted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 12:50 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The first breastplate was offered at http://www.hermann-historica.com, as it seems.
I´ll check in the next few days, which auction it was and was the description is.

The second one is great btw.

Cheers,
Tomasz

Tomasz Nowak
Evocatio Ratisbonensis 1470
http://www.evocatio.de
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Eric Hejdström




Location: Visby, Sweden
Joined: 13 Mar 2007

Posts: 184

PostPosted: Sat 27 Nov, 2010 9:19 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

I went through the Hermann-Historica auctions yesterday but didn't find it. That was my second guess as where I've seen it. The thing is that I saw it just a few weeks ago and I can't remember where...
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Arek Przybylok




Location: Upper Silesia
Joined: 16 Jan 2007

Posts: 112

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2010 2:28 am    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Thank you very much for your help.
As usual, like something is nice, it does not match my needs (second breastplate) Wink
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James Anderson III




Location: Charles Town, WV
Joined: 23 Jul 2010
Likes: 1 page

Posts: 92

PostPosted: Tue 30 Nov, 2010 12:25 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The first looks german, but I don't know a specific narrow timeframe to guess upon.

The second is definitely a breastplate. You can see the holes where the lance rest would have been. The lower fauld articulation seems fairly distinct; I think I've seen it's design once or twice in the last 15 years, but can't recall where.

Sable, a chevron between three lions statant Argent
Knight, Order of the Marshal
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