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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
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Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 11:45 am    Post subject: help with 14th century kit         Reply with quote

So Iv got a living history group that is 14th century and I am putting together a kit based off of a figurine
Big Grin. From what Iv seen in the figurine it all seems fairly accurate except for a few things im not sure about. The figurine shows a scale skirt but without a chest piece and the leg harnesses appear to have a "boss" over the knee, which I can't find any documentation on. From what Iv been told they wouldn't have had a scale skirt without a solid chest piece. Im concerned if I were to go that route I wouldn't be able to show on the insignia on the tabard ( which I like a lot). So my question is what time period would you date something like this, and what could I do to fit the time period better? Any historical examples would be much appreciated Wink



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The harness in question
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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 1:38 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Weill looks to me like you'd be doing the last quarter of the 14th. You could wear a scale skirt with a pair of plates and still use a covering like this.

To me the legs are just done wrong. The padded cuisses by all accounts should cover basically all the upper leg. I think for the most part by 1360 the lame-less leg harness has been replaced by the full leg harness except with the possible use of splinted cuisses.

Over all those are my 5 seconds of looking and thoughts.

RPM
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Jonathan Blair




Location: Hanover, PA
Joined: 15 Aug 2005
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Posts: 479

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 2:03 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Well, that figurine sure is...interesting. I'd actually say that is closer to mid 14th rather than later 14th.

The 14th century is very much a century of change. Plate harness is beginning to come into vogue as maille begins to shrink. Gunpowder is being experimented with in Europe. Swords are getting pointier as the decades get later. War is getting less chivalrous and more methodical. All of this influences how the "well dressed" man-at-arms would appear in the field.

It would help us greatly if you could give us a particular decade and location as well as your planned station (wealthy noble, poor gentry, "jumped up" peasant, or common laborer). My group does the 1380's England/English controlled France, so I would be better able to help you there.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." - The Lord Jesus Christ, from The Gospel According to Saint Matthew, chapter x, verse 34, Authorized Version of 1611
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 2:09 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You need to pinpoint the time frame and location inspired by this figurine.

Once you are dialed in, then look at online effigies from the time period and country of your choice.

As you know, I've done up a lowland Scottish kit based off of a mix of new and slightly older equipment that would be probable for a lowland Scottish lesser knight in 1388 .

I based my armour off of "German" export influences and what was common with English & German knights from 1360-1390 and I ended up with this:



Upgraded to a spring steel breastplate this summer so I don't have the surcoat on to show it off...



and my "new" used sabatons are OOP and need to be rebuilt, but they came in the night before this photo.

Cheers,

DT

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."


Last edited by David Teague on Thu 04 Nov, 2010 7:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 2:55 pm    Post subject: 14th century harness         Reply with quote

Im gonna shoot for the mid 14th century. I agree with you Randall about the legs...they do look wrong and I can see them posing a lot of problems.

I saw looking through David harness and I think Im going to take that approach with the leg harnesses. As far as the arms I think Im going to do splinted arms with an steel elbow Big Grin much like these arm harnesses from Hanwei.

Now Iv gotta decide what approach I want for the chest Confused Im not entirely sure what you meant Randall about keeping the scale skirt with a pair of plates Worried . Are you talking about a coat of plates with the outside having the scale skirt?



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Randall Moffett




Location: Northern Utah
Joined: 07 Jun 2006
Reading list: 5 books

Posts: 2,098

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 7:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Indeed a date and social station would be helpful.

I guess you could go end of the 3rd quarter but I have a hard time seeing some of the bits in the statue being pre1365. I'd not worry much about gunpowder in your armour equation until maybe 50-100 years from this part of the 14th as it is still in its infancy. The motivators would be pole weapons and more powerful crossbows, that is if you follow the direct tech development argument, which I am really not.

My guess is that scale skirts in most if not all cases were separate from breastplates and plates. Pairs of plates remain in use for all the 14th and into the 15th so you are safe in many ways if you went with one. Word to the wise.... avoid anything over 18 gauge for a scale skirt, 19-20 gauge would be much better. I made one out of 16 gauge and think it was much too heavy. I made one of 18 gauge and it was better but I am thinking if I do a new one it will be 20.

RPM
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 7:32 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Hi Reece,

I'm pretty sure that figurine is a bit suspect on historical accuracy.

Before jumping in head first you should poke around the internet (and books) and find what is historical for your country/city state you want to portray.

Heavy use of scale (post the fall of Rome) seems to be more of a Eastern European concept than western concept. There is documentation of the use of some scale armour use in the German city states but as I remember maille and plate is far more common.

If true historical accuracy is not what you seek, then you could just make a skirt of scale riveted to a canvas foundation that belts to your waist and points to your surcoat or the maile underneath (at the sides). You then could have your breastplate under the surcoat .

Cheers,

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Dan R




Location: Australia
Joined: 15 Mar 2010

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 7:36 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

You could have a breastplate with a scale fauld like Walter von Hokkenien (sp?). From my limited research scale seems to be fashionable in Germany. I don't see any reason that you couldn't have a surcoat over your armour if you chose to, although from what I have seen of German effigies they didn't seem to wear surcoats all that often.

Splinted armour also holds on in Germany longer than in the remainder of europe. Depending on what group you are diong this for remember that splints overlap one another, for every visible splint there is a splint under the leather that provides overlap. Splints should be wider than the ones you have pictured and shaped to fit.

The bascinet is centre mounted which also suggestes mid 14th century.

There is an effigy but I can't think of the name that has odd looking knees similar to that figurine.
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Jojo Zerach





Joined: 26 Dec 2009

Posts: 288

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 9:14 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

The scale skirt with mail above it is plausible, here is a drawing of an English effigy that depicts this, although it is early-mid 14th century. The helmet in that figure suggests H.R.E., though.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/hugh_...408/large/



Last edited by Jojo Zerach on Thu 04 Nov, 2010 9:15 pm; edited 2 times in total
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 10:30 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Dan R wrote:
You could have a breastplate with a scale fauld like Walter von Hohenklingen .


This is Walter...



I don't see a scale fauld. Close ups show dagged maille

Here is a uber cool model of Walter von Hohenklingen from his effigy.



Cheers,

David

PS The surcoat is very popular in England and Scotland in the 14th century. The full sleeve jupon is very French & German

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."


Last edited by David Teague on Thu 04 Nov, 2010 10:38 pm; edited 1 time in total
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 10:34 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Here is one of the best one stop shops for period knights

http://www.gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?categoryID=3

Knock yourself out.

Cheers!

David

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Reece Nelson




Location: Overland Park KS
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Likes: 2 pages

Posts: 257

PostPosted: Thu 04 Nov, 2010 11:00 pm    Post subject: 14th century harness         Reply with quote

Awesome David, thanks a bunch! I'll have to skim through that and see what I can find Happy


I was told earlier that my groups date is 1380 and they had told me that it wouldn't have been uncommon to see splinted style seen during that time Cool


So far the scale fauld that I'v been looking for has appeared in the early 15th century and not the 14th century Sad Im still digging around but no luck so far....
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Michael Zander





Joined: 25 Nov 2009

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 5:00 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:
Here is one of the best one stop shops for period knights

http://www.gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?categoryID=3

Knock yourself out.

Cheers!

David

I can't imagine why you wouldn't use http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ instead Happy If there's a particular reason I'd be really interested.
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David Teague




Location: Anchorage, Alaska
Joined: 25 Jan 2004

Posts: 409

PostPosted: Fri 05 Nov, 2010 5:54 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

Michael Zander wrote:
David Teague wrote:
Here is one of the best one stop shops for period knights

http://www.gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?categoryID=3

Knock yourself out.

Cheers!

David

I can't imagine why you wouldn't use http://effigiesandbrasses.com/ instead Happy If there's a particular reason I'd be really interested.


Cause in the big wild world of the internet, I missed that one... Surprised

I'd say, use both.

DT

This you shall know, that all things have length and measure.

Free Scholar/ Instructor Selohaar Fechtschule
The Historic Recrudescence Guild

"Yea though I walk through the valley of death, I will fear no evil: for Thou's sword art is with me; Thy poleaxe and Thy quarterstaff they comfort me."
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Dan R




Location: Australia
Joined: 15 Mar 2010

Posts: 26

PostPosted: Sun 07 Nov, 2010 5:45 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

David Teague wrote:
Dan R wrote:
You could have a breastplate with a scale fauld like Walter von Hohenklingen .


This is Walter...

I don't see a scale fauld. Close ups show dagged maille

Here is a uber cool model of Walter von Hohenklingen from his effigy.

Cheers,

David

PS The surcoat is very popular in England and Scotland in the 14th century. The full sleeve jupon is very French & German


Sorry David, I was recalling the wrong effigy. I was referring to the one out of ToMAR. There is a line dravwing of an effigy with a steel breastplate and a scale fauld but I can't remember the name.
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Michael Zander





Joined: 25 Nov 2009

Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue 23 Nov, 2010 3:47 pm    Post subject:         Reply with quote

That would be Kunz von Haberkorn, dated 1421.
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