[Reece Nelson]

So Iv got a living history group that is 14th century and I am putting together a kit based off of a figurine
. From what Iv seen in the figurine it all seems fairly accurate except for a few things im not sure about. The figurine shows a scale skirt but without a chest piece and the leg harnesses appear to have a "boss" over the knee, which I can't find any documentation on. From what Iv been told they wouldn't have had a scale skirt without a solid chest piece. Im concerned if I were to go that route I wouldn't be able to show on the insignia on the tabard ( which I like a lot). So my question is what time period would you date something like this, and what could I do to fit the time period better? Any historical examples would be much appreciated

[Randall Moffett]

Weill looks to me like you'd be doing the last quarter of the 14th. You could wear a scale skirt with a pair of plates and still use a covering like this.

To me the legs are just done wrong. The padded cuisses by all accounts should cover basically all the upper leg. I think for the most part by 1360 the lame-less leg harness has been replaced by the full leg harness except with the possible use of splinted cuisses.

Over all those are my 5 seconds of looking and thoughts.

RPM

[Jonathan Blair]

Well, that figurine sure is...interesting. I'd actually say that is closer to mid 14th rather than later 14th.

The 14th century is very much a century of change. Plate harness is beginning to come into vogue as maille begins to shrink. Gunpowder is being experimented with in Europe. Swords are getting pointier as the decades get later. War is getting less chivalrous and more methodical. All of this influences how the "well dressed" man-at-arms would appear in the field.

It would help us greatly if you could give us a particular decade and location as well as your planned station (wealthy noble, poor gentry, "jumped up" peasant, or common laborer). My group does the 1380's England/English controlled France, so I would be better able to help you there.

[David Teague]

You need to pinpoint the time frame and location inspired by this figurine.

Once you are dialed in, then look at online effigies from the time period and country of your choice.

As you know, I've done up a lowland Scottish kit based off of a mix of new and slightly older equipment that would be probable for a lowland Scottish lesser knight in 1388 .

I based my armour off of "German" export influences and what was common with English & German knights from 1360-1390 and I ended up with this:



Upgraded to a spring steel breastplate this summer so I don't have the surcoat on to show it off...



and my "new" used sabatons are OOP and need to be rebuilt, but they came in the night before this photo.

Cheers,

DT

[Reece Nelson]

Im gonna shoot for the mid 14th century. I agree with you Randall about the legs...they do look wrong and I can see them posing a lot of problems.

I saw looking through David harness and I think Im going to take that approach with the leg harnesses. As far as the arms I think Im going to do splinted arms with an steel elbow much like these arm harnesses from Hanwei.

Now Iv gotta decide what approach I want for the chest Im not entirely sure what you meant Randall about keeping the scale skirt with a pair of plates . Are you talking about a coat of plates with the outside having the scale skirt?

[Randall Moffett]

Indeed a date and social station would be helpful.

I guess you could go end of the 3rd quarter but I have a hard time seeing some of the bits in the statue being pre1365. I'd not worry much about gunpowder in your armour equation until maybe 50-100 years from this part of the 14th as it is still in its infancy. The motivators would be pole weapons and more powerful crossbows, that is if you follow the direct tech development argument, which I am really not.

My guess is that scale skirts in most if not all cases were separate from breastplates and plates. Pairs of plates remain in use for all the 14th and into the 15th so you are safe in many ways if you went with one. Word to the wise.... avoid anything over 18 gauge for a scale skirt, 19-20 gauge would be much better. I made one out of 16 gauge and think it was much too heavy. I made one of 18 gauge and it was better but I am thinking if I do a new one it will be 20.

RPM

[David Teague]

Hi Reece,

I'm pretty sure that figurine is a bit suspect on historical accuracy.

Before jumping in head first you should poke around the internet (and books) and find what is historical for your country/city state you want to portray.

Heavy use of scale (post the fall of Rome) seems to be more of a Eastern European concept than western concept. There is documentation of the use of some scale armour use in the German city states but as I remember maille and plate is far more common.

If true historical accuracy is not what you seek, then you could just make a skirt of scale riveted to a canvas foundation that belts to your waist and points to your surcoat or the maile underneath (at the sides). You then could have your breastplate under the surcoat .

Cheers,

David

[Dan R]

You could have a breastplate with a scale fauld like Walter von Hokkenien (sp?). From my limited research scale seems to be fashionable in Germany. I don't see any reason that you couldn't have a surcoat over your armour if you chose to, although from what I have seen of German effigies they didn't seem to wear surcoats all that often.

Splinted armour also holds on in Germany longer than in the remainder of europe. Depending on what group you are diong this for remember that splints overlap one another, for every visible splint there is a splint under the leather that provides overlap. Splints should be wider than the ones you have pictured and shaped to fit.

The bascinet is centre mounted which also suggestes mid 14th century.

There is an effigy but I can't think of the name that has odd looking knees similar to that figurine.

[Jojo Zerach]

The scale skirt with mail above it is plausible, here is a drawing of an English effigy that depicts this, although it is early-mid 14th century. The helmet in that figure suggests H.R.E., though.
http://effigiesandbrasses.com/monuments/hugh_...408/large/

[David Teague]

[David Teague]

Here is one of the best one stop shops for period knights

http://www.gothiceye.com/pictures.asp?categoryID=3

Knock yourself out.

Cheers!

David

[Reece Nelson]

Awesome David, thanks a bunch! I'll have to skim through that and see what I can find


I was told earlier that my groups date is 1380 and they had told me that it wouldn't have been uncommon to see splinted style seen during that time


So far the scale fauld that I'v been looking for has appeared in the early 15th century and not the 14th century Im still digging around but no luck so far....

[Michael Zander]

[David Teague]

[Dan R]

[Michael Zander]

That would be Kunz von Haberkorn, dated 1421.